[at-l] Sleeping and Cooking: some nearly random thoughts

[Sloetoe]

"Kari" pw2as at comcast.net writes:
Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:56 pm (PST)

>>> Hubby wants to go out in Nov to Yosemite, has
anyone done that before, how cold does it really get.
### I believe they've already had frosts in the
lowlands, but any website would be able to tell you,
or Google Wunderground weather for that locale. But
sneaux *should*not*stop*you*. Just make sure
everyone's bundled.

>>> Hubby & I have 40+ bags and the kids have kiddie
ones so hubby wants to get them new ones.
### OK, *now* you're talking trouble. 40*F bags ain't
gonna cut it at a 20*F hard frost morning in a tent.
(Well, not unless you're all covered with another
3"-4" in comforters, which would be a blast for the
kids, and at $5-$20/piece from GoodWill, make an
affordable alternative.)

>>> Now he was looking at some 150+ $ ones, ouch.  I
did find some mummy style that go to 0 for around
50$each. Not sure if that will be enough or what.  
### In general, sleeping bags are the only thing it
pays to blow bucks on, as the more you spend, the
lighter/warmer the bags. (With almost all other
outdoor gear, the more you spend, the *heavier* the
result; dumb, but really the way it is.)

### FWIW, $150 may not be alot of money for a bag. 
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/
These are *investments*; these are serious bags; these
are down bags for 20+ years of steady use. Synthetic
bags will give 6 months's use, going steadily from
their rated value (if you're lucky) to half of that
value, and then slowing down the decline from their.
(So a "20*F" rated bag *may* start out at 20*F, but
will be at 40*F by the end of your PCT hike, but will
take another 20 years to go to 50*F.)

### There are some *great* synthetic bags out there,
but you will pay a weight penalty of up to 25%. (This
is wildly dependent on fabrics used and optimism of
ratings -- at 3 pounds, you can find synthetic bags
AND down bags both rated to 20*F. The quality of the
down (550-650 fill) and the weight of the fabric to
contain the down (heavier, compared to the gossamer
fabrics being found on some synthetic bags) equalize
the weight difference between the lighter down and the
heavier synthetic.) SHOP.

### Should you get a decent bag for your kiddos? YES,
ABSOLUTELY. NOTHING will ruin a trip more than kids
who don't proper sleep, or sleep cold, or dread
another experience sleeping cold, etc. Even if you're
only camping, the kids are exerting themselves, and
you will *all* pay for their bad sleep. (which means,
btw, make sure they sleep in a warm balacava *and*
that their sleeping bag is snugged around their heads,
as they will NOT understand cold-weather sleeping bag
adjustments until they are old enough to drive a car,
I think. Just BTW.) 

### But let's ask that question again: Should you buy
a decent bag for your kiddos? NO WAY. BIG WASTE. If
you're backpacking, you will quickly find that most
"Children's" bags on the market are *crap*. You will
find yourself paying as much as for an adult bag, for
an overcompressed, overbuilt, OVERWEIGHT P.O.S.. DON'T
buy it. There is absolutely NO reason why a child
should have to carry a 2#-3# bag (for which they will
*soon* be too big), when your bag is going 1.5#-2.5#,
is probably warmer, *and* more roomy. As odd as it
sounds, go ahead and get the kid a decent adult bag,
spend the money once, be more flexible (you can take
friends backpacking, you can join like bags together
with zippers), and you don't have to worry about the
annual "Hey, do you still fit into ________?" quiz.

### Now, as odd as this may sound on a backpacking
list, the above answer anticipates no long
distance(s). So here's the *real* deal: If you're
going to be hiking for weeks at a time a year "at
least[!]", then DO go ahead and get a bag that fits
your *small* kids right then. The only bag I'd
recommend is the Integral Designs Assiniboine "youth"
http://www.integraldesigns.com/product_detail.cfm?id=719&CFID=5444443&CFTOKEN=85176684&mainproducttypeid=5
This bag packs to the size of a summer sausage, is
well thought out, well built, fairly priced, AND
LIGHT. My sons
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/backpackingwithchildren/photos/browse/32f7
used this bag for hundreds of miles, including the
entire 278 mile Long Trail, and some winter car
camping (in a tent, with blankets). And as advertised,
these bags make dandy half-bags for adults doing that
ultralite thing later...!

### FWIW, after growing out of the Assiniboine "youth"
bags, I got the boys The North Face "Tigger" bags from
Campmor. Rugged, therefore *heavy*, *maybe* cheap,
they are better suited to summer camp, sleepovers, or
the back of the Jeep. (I solicited a buyer for these
bags from this list (D from FLA), had the timing go
bad at my end, and still have them.) For the same
weight, my kids are now toting 20*F, 2.75# synthetic
bags, have more room, sleep warmer, and *I* have no
more gear worries.

### The bottom line is, if you're going to carry the
bags (because the kids are under age 4), get the
Assiniboine "youth" -- they will *well* do you til the
kids grow out of them at ~age 8, and still serve your
ultralite weekends after that.

### From age 4- age 8, the *kids* will appreciate a
reasonable weighted bag. HUGE. Get them a *real*
backpack
http://www.toughtraveler.com/cat119.asp and give them
"real" gear, and everyone will benefit.

### At age 10, FWIW, my boys ended up choosing the
larger Equinox Katahdin (popular with AT
throughhikers), but here is the smaller torsoed
version, appropriately called the Pamola
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/packdetail.cfm/EQ2015

### So, about age 10, just spend the bucks for an
adult bag, and benefit from the lighter weight (per
given temperature rating).

>>> Ive been looking at cookware sets since we have
just old ones from the house for the car camping &
those are a bit heavy. We are not really interested in
the ultralight but since we will be shoulder
most of the load cutting pounds is desirable.
### Don't worry, your interest in cutting weight will
grow *very* soon.

>>> The best ones I found so far are the GSI Hard
Anodized Aluminum Extreme 7 piece set (1 qt, 1.5 qt,
2.5 qt all with lids that are actually frying pans). I
have not been able to find a diameter of the 3 frying
pans anywhere yet though.  Also comes with 1 gripper
handle.  Now I love that it has the handle attach to
the outside so as not to mess up the inside of the
pan.
### First, I don't know the weight of these, but I can
tell you that every cook pot on the market
*that*I*know*of* is grossly overweight, and your luck
in putting a light pack together may be aided by a
trip to the local "Dollar Store" to get a fitting
ElCheapo pot/top. We're talking POUNDS here.

### Second, DON'T try to recreate the home kitchen in
the woods. Take ONE pot, ONE spoon, and have at it.
Not only is this very communal (and takes us back a
bit), but parents can monitor *exactly* what kids are
eating (and insure that everyone is refueled from the
day's activities, and ready for a cold night or a long
tomorrow), AND parents can also control *the* *food*.
(Like avoiding open cups for water, spillage of food
can have bad consequences when you're miles from
nowhere. Be secure: pull-top water bottles and single
pot meals means water and food are safe.) 

### Third, (not that you asked, but) Leave the dish
soap home, keep the animal fats (cheese, meats) *out*
of the pot, and clean up with some water and a handful
of gravel or dry leaves with a rinse clean. If you're
"doing dishes" like you should at home
1) *you're* not on vacation
2) your kids are not being watched
3) none of you is moving down the trail

### Especially when young (3-6), kids need to eat and
go, not eat,
sit-on-arse-while-adults-play-house-in-the-woods-then-pack-up,
and go. By the time you're ready to go, the kids are
filthy *and* ready for a rest. Don't do it.

### So, go to the Dollar Store, put the rest of the
money into packs or bags, and go lighter, farther,
happier.

>>> And I think I read that it had grippers on the
bottom so it doesn't slide. Is that a problem much?
### No. All it would do is give a place for grime to
embed.

>>> I'm thinking that we could just take the pots/
frying pans that are needed for the meal we would be
cooking & leave the rest at home.
### Right on. But get that down to one pot. Simplify
simplify simplify.

>>> The other one I like so far is the MSR Duralite
Gourmet Cookset, again is the Hard Anodized Aluminum,
this one has 1.5L, 2L, frying pan (7.5 x 1.75), fitted
lid & the gripper handle.  But the handle goes over
the edge & into the pot/pan a bit.  Not sure I like
that feature.
### I've seen an MSR pot holder that went 4 oz. --
that's a QUARTER OF A POUND, for goodness' sake. FWIW,
my entire kitchen for myself and twin 12.5 year old
boys goes out at a pound even -- pot, top, stove, pot
stand, wind screen, lighter, spoon, and pot cozy
(insulative foam to keep cooking heat after stove runs
out, saving fuel, time, and bother). One POUND. Sounds
like your single pot may be going that much.

>>> Hubby insists it needs to be nonstick & this seems
to be the best option with the Hard Anodized Aluminum.
### That NonStick not only adds weight, but will go
away plenty quick when the pot holder, wind screen,
stove, spoon, lighter, etc. start scraping around
inside as the kitchen is toted from one site to the
next.

>>> Also for dishes we thought the Orikaso plate, bowl
& mug were cute but how stable are they in the back
country for the kids?
### When Junior spills, are you going to have him eat
it? Are you going to dip into tomorrow's food/fuel and
cook another batch? Are you going to tell the
bear/varmints to take only *that* spilled food, and
leave the rest? Are you going to tell Junior "tough
love tonight, buddy!" and go to bed? And by the way,
who's going to *carry* those plates, bowls, and mugs,
and spoons? Ugha. LEAVE IT IN THE STORE, put the money
into Smartwool socks, Mom&Dad's Western Mountaineering
bags, and Tough Travelers for the kids.

>>> Is the Lexan or GSI X2 Modular Tableware Set a
better idea?  My boys are 5 and 7yrs old.  Also since
it will be cold Im sure we will be having hot
cocoa, will the Orikaso work for that, my guess is no.
 Also will the Orikaso mug fit into a normal soda can
cosy.  Just a thought.  I really like the REI
carabiner handle mug since its insulated & have the
topper on it. Kinda spendy though.  Has anyone seen
something similar & maybe smaller that would be good
for that purpose.
### Ohmigod. You're trying to KILL someone, aren't
you..... (Just kidding, but this is the internet, and
teasing sometimes gets lost, doesn't it?) LEXAN weighs
a TON, and whoever thought it up for backpacking use
should be shot.

### But for hot chocolate, put it into a sports-top
bottle, add hot water, put inside jacket and soak up
the warmth, drink when appropo. FWIW, SlimFast powder
will taste just as yummy, add a marvelous mix of
vitamins and minerals, and add a boatload of fiber
(handy to quicken those processes that you may well
want quickened in the woods, *especially* when cold.)
So boil some water right as you're leaving camp, mix
up some goodie juice and put into jackets, pack up and
hike, and at your first rest stop, you have a YUMMY
chocolate meal, ready to slurp. And clean-up comes at
the next stream, when you get water as you normally
would.

### Wow! Gotta go. Hope that helps.

sloetoe

Spatior! Nitor! Nitor! Tempero!
   Pro Pondera Et Meliora.