[cdt-l] Bears - answers and comments

Tue Apr 10 08:37:11 CDT 2007

You People are so silly with your bickering and opinions, I LOVE IT. HIKE 
YOUR OWN HIKE. What difference does any of this make. I Carry the small can 
of spray NOT BECAUSE I AM AFRAID OF BEARS. I am more afraid of small minded 
people who think they know everything and criticize every one else. Hike 
your own hike and I'll Hike mine.The word that comes to mind is Pompous
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ginny & Jim Owen" <spiritbear2k at hotmail.com>
To: <cdt-l at mailman.backcountry.net>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 8:31 PM
Subject: [cdt-l] Bears - answers and comments


>
> Jonathan -
>
> Ginny and I left Phoenix a week ago, prior to the arrival of your post. 
> Time
> spent camping near Mt. Graham, several days in the Chiricahuas and Cochise
> Stronghold (the Dragoons), playing touron in Tombstone and Bisbee, then
> wandering north through the Blue Range and across the Mogollon Rim, then
> back to Phoenix on the Apache Trail. But no Internet access all week. 
>  So -
> you'll get the answers to your questions a little later than usual. Let's
> start with this question -
>
>>You have many times accused people of making decisions based on "not
>>knowing
>>the facts". So, where did you learn your facts? What are the sources?
>
> In 1986, I was told by an animist that I was a bear.  The truth of the
> proposition became evident shortly thereafter.  It was the start of a 20+
> year study of bears, in general.  It led to the acquisition of a bookshelf
> full of "bear" books, videos, URLs, etc.  (all of which are presently in
> storage in Maryland).  It led to several thousand miles of hiking in 
> grizzly
> country - with the required viewing of the NPS videos in Yellowstone
> (twice), Glacier (twice) and Denali.
>
> The recent, fear-based discussion about bear spray illustrates vividly the
> level of ignorance that today pervades the thruhiking community. 
> Ignorance
> is not a crime - as humans, we're ALL ignorant about subjects with which 
> we
> have no experience.  The problem comes when one ASSUMES that their fears
> justify such actions as carrying bear spray (or a GPS) - without bothering
> to get educated about the subject.  Do you remember the old saying about
> ASS-U-ME?  The problem is that too many people (including thruhikers) are
> too lazy to get educated about subjects that should be of paramount 
> interest
> to them - like (to keep this "on-topic")  dealing with bears - or learning
> how to navigate.  This kind of willful ignorance is detrimental to the
> individual hiker, to the community - and to the Trail.
>
> Onward -
> Your sources - aren't bad, but they don't cover the ground.  The USGS
> reference
> (http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/attacks/bear-human_conflicts.htm)
> as you said, only applies to Alaska.  If you read it carefully, you'll 
> find
> that it says the same things I've told you - with the exceptions that 1/
> USGS is "required" to add the last line re: bear spray and 2/ the numbers 
> do
> not include the Lower 48 statistics.
>
> The Wikipedia reference
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_
> decade ) is woefully incomplete.  I've frankly learned to mistrust 
> Wikipedia
> - too many inaccuracies.  In this case, the numbers are further inflated 
> by
> the inclusion of Canadian statistics.
>
> There are other, better sources - but I don't have them available right 
> now.
>  Keep looking.
>
> In any case, NONE of those incidents involve thruhikers.  It was once
> pointed out to us (by a hunter) that, as hikers we had the option of 
> making
> noise or traveling in groups.  As a hunter, he necessarily makes no noise,
> and then if his hunt is successful, he gets to field dress the game and
> carry out the bloody carcass.  Same basic situation  applies to fishermen.
> They are much more at risk than we are.
>
> Re "fed bears" - you said:
>>Before these bears are "made dead", they're dangerous.
>
> A fed bear rarely lasts long enough to be a problem to thruhikers - I've
> seen the efficiency with which the NPS and USFS dispatch them or otherwise
> deal with the situation.  In Glacier, a black bear will be dead within 24
> hours - a grizzly incident will close the trail within hours - and 
> probably
> for the rest of year.  What's the probability that a thruhiker will be 
> there
> during that particular time frame?
>
> Re: "singing" you said -
>>Sing louder? That's rich...
>
> But I'm serious.  You asked:
>
>>On making noise... What exactly do you do when you're hiking into a >30mph
>>wind? In bushes next to a raging stream?
>
> Think about what you said - if you're hiking into a 30 mph wind, what
> exactly are you gonna do with that bear spray?  The bear is upwind of 
> you -
> if you spray him, it WILL blow back into YOUR face.  And you'll be blind
> while the bear scratches his head trying to figure out why you did that to
> yourself.  In bushes next to a stream?  That's almost exactly the 
> situation
> that Nitro presented last week.  Now let me ask - are you gonna go into
> EVERY stream crossing with your bear spray "in hand" and the safety off?
> That "could" work - but it would get real old, real fast. And the
> probability of spraying yourself increases greatly. If your bear spray is 
> on
> your belt, then you might as well leave it home.  If you meet a bear in 
> the
> bushes, keep in mind that his reaction time beats yours - every time.  Do
> you know that human reaction time varies, but the absolute minimum is on 
> the
> order of 3/8ths of a second. And that's just the time it takes your brain 
> to
> register the situation - that doesn't get the bear spray into your hand - 
> or
> the safety off - or the canister in firing position - or allow you time to
> decide whether you need to fire - or where to spray. Nor does it allow 
> time
> for you to overcome the shock of looking at the "real" top of the food 
> chain
> at close range.  By the time you've overcome all those factors, the bear
> will be either on breathing heavily all over you or out of range of your
> bear spray and heading for parts unknown.   Bears are a lot faster than
> you'll ever think of being.
>
> So - how do you deal with bear country? You travel in a group of 3 or 
> more -
> together. NOT 60 seconds apart.  It's a lot safer than the bear spray. 
> And
> three voices are better than one.  We also found that the noise of a Leki 
> or
> an ice axe on rock carries as well, or better, than the human voice.  And
> that ANYTHING is better than bear bells.
>
> But I'm repeating myself here.  I said this long ago - here:
> http://spiriteaglehome.com/cdt%20challenges.html
>
>
> Now some comments -
>
> 8 oz of bear spray WILL NOT do the job you expect it to.  If you're not
> using the big canister, then you're wasting your time and you WILL be 
> making
> your life more dangerous than if you carried nothing.
>
> "Bear territory" is NOT "a few hundred miles."  It runs from Canada 
> through
> Yellowstone - look up the "Yellowstone to Yukon initiative".  There is 
> also
> direct evidence of grizzly activity in the Cochetopa/La Garita/Weminuche
> area of Colorado.
>
> Then - the "clean campsite" thing -
> The NP's that the CDT runs through - Glacier has separate cooking/sleeping
> areas, with food storage in still another separate area.  Yellowstone is a
> little looser - but has bear poles to hang your food.  As for the 
> Cheetos -
> if you're a thruhiker, you're supposed to pick them up and eat them.  Or 
> at
> least pick them up and dump them in your trash bag.
>
> Seriously, if the previous occupants of your site were that sloppy, then
> maybe you might want to move your campsite?  I have yet to see that
> situation in a Park site.  Regardless, both inside and outside the Parks,
> it's "your" responsibility to assure that wherever you sleep is clean.
>
> This statement requires a specific comment -
>
>>Thru-hikers are by definition not the kinds of people who live their life
>>governed by irrational fear.
>
> That was once true - still is to some extent.  But each year it becomes 
> less
> true.  I've meant to write an essay about this specific subject, but have
> failed to make the time to do so.  So far.  The material is out there - 
> I've
> just not been motivated to start that kind of fist-fight with the entire
> community.  But it's coming - maybe this summer, maybe later.
>
>>Such people irk me as well. There is way too much fear in our society.
>
> Yup - and it's getting worse because it's become part of the basic 
> societal
> programming - starting with kindergarten.
>
> Hmmm - that was NOT brief.  Oh well...you asked.
>
> Walk softly,
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.spiriteaglehome.com/
>
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