[cdt-l] cdt-l Digest, Vol 39, Issue 5

[gene and linda butcher]

RE:  Head Count - Gene Butcher "Flat Feet," AT-90, PCT-00.  For those having
hiked the AT, you will remember Blood Mt. - it is 4 miles to the top of
Blood from my house here in Suches, GA.  I am waiting like other for one of
the last snow reports to decide which direction to thru-hike.  However, I
would prefer SoBo mid-June like I did the AT.
RE:  NoBo or SoBo -long (Jim and/or Ginny Owen) - Great write up on your CDT
thru-hikes.  Thank you for sharing all that info - It will definately help
in my decision for a NoBo/SoBo/or Flip.
----- Original Message -----
From: <cdt-l-request at backcountry.net>
To: <cdt-l at backcountry.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 12:28 AM
Subject: cdt-l Digest, Vol 39, Issue 5


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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Head Count (ToeK) (ToeK)
>    2. Northbound or Southbound - long (Jim and/or Ginny Owen)
>    3. Re: Northbound or Southbound - Wyoming (Jeffrey Olson)
>    4. Re: Northbound or Southbound - Wyoming (Slyatpct at aol.com)
>    5. Re: Northbound or Southbound - Wyoming (Ginny & Jim Owen)
>    6. Re: Northbound or Southbound - Wyoming (Ginny & Jim Owen)
>    7. Need Addresses and Names (Lawton Grinter)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 01:03:25 +0100
> From: "ToeK" <toek at xs4all.nl>
> Subject: Re: [cdt-l] Head Count (ToeK)
> To: <cdt-l at backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <IBEGLBLDGDLLGOGJDEPEKEPACCAA.toek at xs4all.nl>
>
>
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net
> [mailto:cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net]Namens
> cdt-l-request at backcountry.net
> Verzonden: woensdag 3 januari 2007 19:00
> Aan: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> Onderwerp: cdt-l Digest, Vol 39, Issue 4
>
>
> Send cdt-l mailing list submissions to
> cdt-l at backcountry.net
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/cdt-l
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> You can reach the person managing the list at
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>
> hi,
> This is ToeK from the Netherlands. AT-01, PCT-04.
> I am in for 2007. SOBO, Starting mid-June.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 23:14:53 -0500
> From: "Jim and/or Ginny Owen" <spiriteagle99 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [cdt-l] Northbound or Southbound - long
> To: cdt-l at mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <BAY133-F82BDA78941EEB8697B202A0B80 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> Several years ago I attempted to analyze the differences between hiking
> north on the CDT and hiking southbound.  After our southbound hike, I was
> sure that hiking south was the way to go - after all, we had a terrific
> hike, one I'd recommend to anybody.  Yet when I said that, northbound
hikers
> immediately said, "No, it is much better to go north."  So, because I was
> curious, we decided on our second thruhike to do it northbound, just to
see
> for ourselves what it was like and to answer the question,  is it better
to
> go north or to go south?
>
> And the answer is - they're different.  Both ways have advantages and
> disadvantages, but whichever way you go, you will probably think it was
the
> right direction - for you.
>
> So - which way is right for you?  I think most hikers decide when they'll
> start and which direction based largely on when the timing is right for
> them.  What is your job situation?  How impatient are you to be on the
> trail?  Some have read a journal that either made them decide they wanted
to
> hike under the same conditions or that they definitely didn't want to hike
> under those conditions.  I read Karen Berger's book before our first hike
> and that certainly made hiking southbound sound like a better bet.  Yet in
> talking to her years later, she said she thought that northbound was a
> better way to go because it allowed you to get into shape gradually, on
the
> easy trail in southern New Mexico rather than by starting out with snow
and
> steep climbs in Glacier.
>
> A lot of hikers start in New Mexico because they don't want to wait to
start
> their hike.  Northbound means you can begin in mid to late-April instead
of
> late June.  It means you begin with dry warm temperatures, fairly flat
> trail, and easy navigation.  There are towns fairly early in the hike
> (Lordsburg, Silver City or Deming), so you don't have to carry huge loads
of
> food the first week - though that changes soon enough when you reach the
> Gila.  The desert in spring can be beautiful, though very dry.  In New
> Mexico the rainy season doesn't begin until July, so May can be really,
> really dry.  This can mean fire restrictions and even closures of the
trail
> through the National Forests.  It may mean that the cows are taken off the
> range and so water sources (windmills or wells) are turned off when you
get
> there.  Even in a very dry year (25% of normal) after 7 years of drought,
we
> always found enough water to get through, but there were times that we
were
> surprised by dry wells along the way.
>
> Northbound hikers usually reach Colorado in early June.  If you get there
> too soon, you will find a lot of snow, making for hard hiking and
invisible
> trail.  Some hikers do roadwalks around the snow, some do shortcuts that
> omit some of the most remote and beautiful stretches of the CDT, some
decide
> to skip Colorado entirely and jump north to either Wyoming or Montana.
Some
> simply wait a week or two until the trail is passable.  We were lucky and
> timed it right, so we reached the snowy mountains just as the snow was
> disappearing.  We still ended up doing two overnight detours  (once from
> Blue Lake to Platoro Reservoir to Elbert Pass, the other down Trout Creek
> around the Knife Edge) but for the most part, snow navigation wasn't a
> problem for us.  Colorado in early summer is beautiful - with green
meadows
> and lots of flowers. It also can be crowded - a lot of people use the
trail
> in the summer, from hikers, horsepeople and runners to bikes and ATVs.  We
> had little solitude in Colorado this year.  This has an interesting side
> effect - almost every town we went through had some sort of summer
festival
> going either just before or just after we passed through. I would have
> enjoyed the folk festival in Pagosa Springs - but we couldn't afford to
stay
> an extra day or two at that point.  Fourth of July has its own
festivities.
> Grand Lake was having another weekend festival when we passed through.  We
> stayed for the Rotary Club Breakfast - but missed the barbeque, darn it.
> Other towns had Rodeos or art shows every weekend during the summer.  The
> downside to hiking Colorado northbound is the thunderstorms.  Some hikers
> start hiking before dawn to miss the daily thunderstorms.  We just lived
> with them.   While we only had a few bad storms, we were lucky.  There
were
> several days where we saw black clouds a few miles away that just missed
us.
>   Some days we got rained and hailed on several times - but we only ran
into
> bad lightning a few times, and that usually at night.  But we were lucky.
> It did mean that we skipped climbing the 14,000' peaks, since every time
we
> were near one the timing was wrong.  We didn't want to go up any of them
> when the black clouds were looming.  And they always were.
>
> Wyoming is much the same for either northbound or southbound hikers, since
> we both reach the state in August - full summer.  It may be hot - or not.
It
> may rain - or not.  It may be windy - or not.  There are likely to be
below
> freezing nights in the Winds - but that's true whichever way you hike.
> There are lots of flowers in the high country and crowds in Yellowstone
and
> the Winds - for both northbound and southbound hikers.
>
> Montana in the fall is different for northbound hikers.  It can be very
dry
> and fire closures are a possibility.  This year there was smoke from fires
> all over the west for most of August and September, but they never closed
> the Forests, just a few sections that were actually on fire when we hiked
> there. (We had four separate fires directly on the trail ahead of us.)
Going
> through the Bob Marshall in September means low stream crossings and the
> beginning of autumn color.  It can mean very cold nights and snow -
whether
> you are there in September or October - or beautiful hiking with a lot of
> wildlife.  Glacier in the fall can be beautiful or the beginning of
winter.
> Bears are getting ready to hibernate and may be a bit more aggressive.
The
> Park closes down in the middle of September.  The backcountry offices
closed
> this year on September 17, as did the stores and motels (except St. Mary's
> and East Glacier Lodge).  If you arrive after that, you have to go to West
> Glacier to get your permit.  The border crossing closed on October 1,
which
> meant that public transportation stopped the day before.  If you don't
have
> someone to pick you up at the border, this can be a problem as there will
be
> no cars past St. Mary's.
>
> The result is - most northbound hikers feel pressure to finish before the
> Park closes and/or winter sets in.  It is hard to feel like taking your
time
> when you start worrying about being snowbound in the northern Rockies. You
> can deal with northern Montana in the fall - but it means carrying winter
> gear from the middle of September and understanding that it will be cold -
> at least some of the time.
>
> This is the same worry that southbound hikers have with Colorado - but
> because it is the end of the trail for northbounders, there is more of a
> sense that it is preventable, if only you can hike fast enough to get
> through before the seasons change.  Our solution was to jump north from
> Butte in mid-September, deal with the Park bureaucracy before the services
> closed down for the season and hike south.  We had snow in Glacier,
> beautiful Indian summer in the Bob Marshall Wilderness, more snow in
Helena
> and warm sunny days to finish our hike in mid-October.  But we were lucky.
>
> So - why would you want to hike southbound?  Lots of reasons.  Starting at
> the end of June means you have a couple of weeks of snow starting out your
> hike, but then you might not have to deal with it again for the rest of
the
> hike.  You are more likely to be able to do a straightforward linear hike
as
> a southbounder - which is important to a lot of hikers.  You have less
time
> pressure to finish the hike before winter sets in.  A six month hike
becomes
> a possibility if you are willing to be creative (i.e. we started May 30
near
> Butte and hiked north for a month before flipping south) or to live with
the
> possibility of winter weather in Colorado.  While it can be cold and snowy
> in Colorado in the autumn, the snows tend not to last very long, so if you
> can get to town to wait out the storm, it is generally possible to
continue
> hiking soon afterwards.  In Colorado there are many towns near the trail,
so
> if it becomes necessary, it is easier to bail than in Montana.  New Mexico
> in the fall is usually sunny and though it can be very cold at night in
> November, it is possible to continue hiking into December if you choose.
>
> We loved hiking through Glacier and the Bob Marshall in June - it was
> beautiful with all the snow covered mountains and we had the trail to
> ourselves.  For six days in the Bob we didn't see another human
footprint -
> much less another hiker or horseperson.  That was a unique and wonderful
> experience.  Water crossings are generally high and frequent, which can be
a
> hazard, but you don't have to worry about dry springs, and snowbanks make
> good water sources in dry stretches.
>
> Southbound hikers generally have a more solitary hike.  When we hiked
> northbound, we rarely went two days without seeing someone. That wasn't
the
> case for our southbound hike.  We had the mountains to ourselves, much of
> the way.  When we reached Colorado it was already autumn, so we often had
> the trails to ourselves except on the weekends.  If this is what you
value -
> then southbound may be the way to go.  If you hate solitude - don't do the
> CDT.
>
> Southbound hikers encounter summer wildflowers in southern Montana and
> northern Wyoming in great abundance.  Colorado meant autumn color - which
> extended into northern New Mexico.  It was beautiful - even though aspen
> makes us sneeze.  We had very little problem with thunderstorms on our
> southbound hike - though there were a couple storms.  That is because
> southern Montana is very very dry - the storms all passed north of us.
>
> The pressure on southbound hikers is to get through southern Colorado
before
> winter sets in.   For many, that means skipping the San Juan loop - and
then
> regretting it when the weather turns out to be less of a problem than
> expected.  Snow storms are always a possibility.  We picked up our winter
> gear September 20th, but wished we had it when we got caught in a blizzard
> on September 19th.  We found that southbound was a colder hike than
> northbound, because you are in the high country either early (June in
> Montana) or late (Colorado in September/October).  It makes a difference
in
> your pack weight. If you are a very strong fast hiker - starting in July
and
> finishing Colorado three months later - you may not have too much problem.
> But those who hike for five or six months need to be prepared for freezing
> nights every month you are out there.  (Yes, it can snow in the Wind River
> Range in July or August.)
>
> New Mexico in the autumn can be a delight, especially if you had cold or
> snow in the high country of Colorado.  Warm and sunny, with springs that
> actually have water, it is possible to hike easily and quickly along the
> many dirt roads that make up much of  the trail.  It is a pleasant and
easy
> way to end the hike - especially if you don't get into race for the border
> mode.  We saw a lot of wildlife on our southbound hike - largely because
> there was so much more water than in the spring.  OTOH, the Gila in spring
> was a welcome oasis - in the fall it was cold. You might want to spend
some
> time with maps looking for alterative routes that don't require 140 river
> crossings - like the official route through the Black Range or the Granny
> Mountain trail.  New Mexico was still beautiful - both in the spring and
in
> the autumn.
>
> Which direction did I enjoy most?  Both were terrific. Knowing what I
know,
> I would do it again, either way.  Or maybe I'd hike north through New
Mexico
> and then flip to Montana - I haven't tried that yet.
>
> So which way should you go? Well, you could wait to see what the snow is
> like this spring - heavy in Montana or heavy in Colorado.  Or you could
flip
> a coin.  Whichever way you go - there are more positives than negatives.
>
> Ginny
>
> http://www.spiriteaglehome.com/
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> >From photos to predictions, The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes
has
> it all. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline1
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 21:23:17 -0700
> From: Jeffrey Olson <jolson at olc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [cdt-l] Northbound or Southbound - Wyoming
> To: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <459C8135.6060907 at olc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Jim and/or Ginny Owen wrote:
> >
> > Wyoming is much the same for either northbound or southbound hikers,
> > since we both reach the state in August ? full summer. It may be hot ?
> > or not. It may rain ? or not. It may be windy ? or not. There are
> > likely to be below freezing nights in the Winds ? but that?s true
> > whichever way you hike. There are lots of flowers in the high country
> > and crowds in Yellowstone and the Winds ? for both northbound and
> > southbound hikers.
> The only caveat I would have with this is that I find it easier to hike
> south - with the wind - rather than north, into its teeth, while walking
> through the Great Basin. Not much of a note, but if you've hiked into 30
> mph+ winds for days on end, it's a consideration... Having lived in
> Laramie for years, and hiked the Great Basin in both spring and fall, I
> found it always windy. "The Wind, the bloody Wind!!!"
>
> Jeff, just Jeff...
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 23:38:06 EST
> From: Slyatpct at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [cdt-l] Northbound or Southbound - Wyoming
> To: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <cb7.6d9237a.32cddeae at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> In a message dated 1/3/2007 11:23:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jolson at olc.edu writes:
>
> The only  caveat I would have with this is that I find it easier to hike
> south -  with the wind - rather than north, into its teeth, while walking
> through  the Great Basin.
>
>
> -------------------------
>
> I don't remember too many very windy days through the basin, if any, but
it
> was hot.  One time I placed my watch/thermometer/altimeter in the sun as
we
> rested under a tarp for shade.  In less then 5 minutes the face was
black.  In
> a few minutes it cooled down and said 137*  Of course it  wasn't that hot,
> but still....
>
> Another thing to consider in 05 when i hiked the JMT south, the sun always
> seemed to be in my eyes.  Anyone else find that a problem?
>
> Sly
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 23:43:14 -0500
> From: "Ginny & Jim Owen" <spiritbear2k at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [cdt-l] Northbound or Southbound - Wyoming
> To: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <BAY101-F176800C3F068625A435B9387B80 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> We heard a lot about the Wyoming wind, but didn't encounter it on either
of
> our hikes.  On our first hike we had our worst winds in Colorado - once at
> Ranger Peak, once near Bowen Lake and again just north of Cumbres Pass.
The
> latter two forced a change of route when we were blown off our feet and
> thought it would be wise to get off the ridgeline.
>
> This year we had one bad windstorm/dust storm in New Mexico just south of
> Cuba, but the rest of the time the winds weren't that bad.  And most of
the
> time when it was windy, the wind was at our back.  We saw lots of dust
> devils but only one that reached us, and it wasn't a big one.
>
> Ginny
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.spiriteaglehome.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Jeffrey Olson <jolson at olc.edu>
> >Reply-To: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> >To: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> >Subject: Re: [cdt-l] Northbound or Southbound - Wyoming
> >Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 21:23:17 -0700
> >
> >Jim and/or Ginny Owen wrote:
> > >
> > > Wyoming is much the same for either northbound or southbound hikers,
> > > since we both reach the state in August - full summer. It may be hot -
> > > or not. It may rain - or not. It may be windy - or not. There are
> > > likely to be below freezing nights in the Winds - but that's true
> > > whichever way you hike. There are lots of flowers in the high country
> > > and crowds in Yellowstone and the Winds - for both northbound and
> > > southbound hikers.
> >The only caveat I would have with this is that I find it easier to hike
> >south - with the wind - rather than north, into its teeth, while walking
> >through the Great Basin. Not much of a note, but if you've hiked into 30
> >mph+ winds for days on end, it's a consideration... Having lived in
> >Laramie for years, and hiked the Great Basin in both spring and fall, I
> >found it always windy. "The Wind, the bloody Wind!!!"
> >
> >Jeff, just Jeff...
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >cdt-l mailing list
> >cdt-l at backcountry.net
> >http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/cdt-l
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here.  Get all the scoop.
> http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline2
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 23:47:15 -0500
> From: "Ginny & Jim Owen" <spiritbear2k at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [cdt-l] Northbound or Southbound - Wyoming
> To: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <BAY101-F7B2082655B1419724E68687B80 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
>
> >From: Slyatpct at aol.com
>
> >
> >Another thing to consider in 05 when i hiked the JMT south, the sun
always
> >seemed to be in my eyes.  Anyone else find that a problem?
>
>
> One day in the Great Basin we were hiking due west toward Brenton Springs
> and the  late afternoon sun was a problem, but the rest of the time in the
> basin it was cloudy every afternoon, so sun in our eyes wasn't an issue.
If
> you are going south, it would happen in the morning - but I don't remember
> that as a problem on our first hike.
>
> Ginny
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Your Hotmail address already works to sign into Windows Live Messenger!
Get
> it now
>
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.live.com/messenger/overview
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 22:38:14 -0700
> From: "Lawton Grinter" <lawtong at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [cdt-l] Need Addresses and Names
> To: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <BAY128-F238AE42BC725D2D4ECBC50A7B80 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> CDTl-ers,
>
> P.O.D. and I are looking for the names and address of the couple that own
> and run the Leadore INN. We´re also looking for the names and address of
the
> Thomas´that own the Thomas Ranch just north of Pie Town.  Any help would
be
> great.
>
> Thanks, Disco
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Type your favorite song. Get a customized station. Try MSN Radio powered
> by Pandora. http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> End of cdt-l Digest, Vol 39, Issue 5
> ************************************