From aandg at telusplanet.net Fri Oct 3 11:18:19 2008 From: aandg at telusplanet.net (aandg at telusplanet.net) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 10:18:19 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [Cdt-l] Water report - SB Cuba to Grants 25 Sep - 1 Oct Message-ID: <32470608.16591421223050699732.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edmwes95> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20081003/da8c9a6c/attachment.html From aandg at telusplanet.net Fri Oct 3 11:28:19 2008 From: aandg at telusplanet.net (aandg at telusplanet.net) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 10:28:19 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [Cdt-l] Water report - SB Cuba to Grants 25 Sep - 1 Oct Message-ID: <22530403.16594001223051299895.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edmwes95> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20081003/79b44696/attachment.html From weathercarrot at hotmail.com Thu Oct 16 11:11:46 2008 From: weathercarrot at hotmail.com (Weathercarrot) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:11:46 -0400 Subject: [Cdt-l] Gene Espy Tribute In-Reply-To: <195053.7258.qm@web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <195053.7258.qm@web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The Gene Espy tribute video is now posted on youtube, thanks to Freefall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpjBtR0AGSw enjoy! wc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20081016/a4903593/attachment.html From BROWNANP at student.gvsu.edu Thu Oct 16 13:40:09 2008 From: BROWNANP at student.gvsu.edu (Andrew P. Brown) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:40:09 -0400 Subject: [Cdt-l] MSR Pocket Rocket Message-ID: <1224182409.7e34ab3cBROWNANP@student.gvsu.edu> Hey All, I'm heading out on the CDT in April and am debating cashing in my alcohol stove for the MSR Pocket Rocket. Anybody have experiencing using this stove on a thru-hike? In particular I would like to know how many uses you got out of your fuel canisters (4 or 8 ounce) and how it performed at elevation (10,000 plus feet). Thanks for any input ya have. Andy Brown AT 2004 PCT 2006 From taterno at cox.net Thu Oct 16 15:05:59 2008 From: taterno at cox.net (taterno at cox.net) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:05:59 -0700 Subject: [Cdt-l] MSR Pocket Rocket In-Reply-To: <1224182409.7e34ab3cBROWNANP@student.gvsu.edu> Message-ID: <20081016160559.DCM8N.934787.imail@fed1rmwml29> Andy, I am not a thru hiker (yet), so i can't give you details for long term use. I have used my Pocket Rocket at 11,000 ft on the PCT for up to a week. I just heated water for dinner and morning coffee or tea, so I didn't push the canister capacity limit. I just finished a 3 day hike north of Walker Pass, with temps as low as 27 deg, when trying to use the stove. The canister needed to be warmed for the fuel to become sufficiently vaporized. It was also used on the same 3 day hike in very high winds, with just a rock windscreen, and water boiled in no more than 5 minutes. Backpackinglight.com states that over the course of a long hike, the weight advantage of the alcohol is nearly reached with a canister stove. I like the convience of canister stoves' instant on and off. Resupply must be taken into consideration. Alcohol may have the clear advantage here. Tom The Incredible Bulk ---- "Andrew P. Brown" wrote: ============= Hey All, I'm heading out on the CDT in April and am debating cashing in my alcohol stove for the MSR Pocket Rocket. Anybody have experiencing using this stove on a thru-hike? In particular I would like to know how many uses you got out of your fuel canisters (4 or 8 ounce) and how it performed at elevation (10,000 plus feet). Thanks for any input ya have. Andy Brown AT 2004 PCT 2006 _______________________________________________ Cdt-l mailing list Cdt-l at backcountry.net http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/cdt-l From jbraun at vizsolutions.com Thu Oct 16 15:25:17 2008 From: jbraun at vizsolutions.com (Jeff Braun) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:25:17 -0600 Subject: [Cdt-l] MSR Pocket Rocket In-Reply-To: <20081016160559.DCM8N.934787.imail@fed1rmwml29> References: <1224182409.7e34ab3cBROWNANP@student.gvsu.edu> <20081016160559.DCM8N.934787.imail@fed1rmwml29> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20081016141115.02c17b40@vizsolutions.com> I've used the Pocket Rocket along the CDT throughout Montana and Wyoming, but I probably never used it much over 10,000 feet. The 8 oz canister lasts 9 days for me, boiling 1 cup in morning and 2 cups for dinner (including ~8 minute simmer time). Only time I had any problems (slow to boil) was with colder weather (in the 30s) using the cheaper Coleman 30% propane blend. There is some good info online if you google it. I recall the Backpacking Light article is a good one - http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/canister_stove_faq.html Jeff At 02:05 PM 10/16/2008, taterno at cox.net wrote: >Andy, >I am not a thru hiker (yet), so i can't give you details for long >term use. I have used my Pocket Rocket at 11,000 ft on the PCT for >up to a week. I just heated water for dinner and morning coffee or >tea, so I didn't push the canister capacity limit. I just finished >a 3 day hike north of Walker Pass, with temps as low as 27 deg, when >trying to use the stove. The canister needed to be warmed for the >fuel to become sufficiently vaporized. It was also used on the same >3 day hike in very high winds, with just a rock windscreen, and >water boiled in no more than 5 minutes. > >Backpackinglight.com states that over the course of a long hike, the >weight advantage of the alcohol is nearly reached with a canister >stove. I like the convience of canister stoves' instant on and off. > >Resupply must be taken into consideration. Alcohol may have the >clear advantage here. > >Tom >The Incredible Bulk > > > >---- "Andrew P. Brown" wrote: > >============= >Hey All, > >I'm heading out on the CDT in April and am debating cashing in my >alcohol stove for the MSR Pocket Rocket. > >Anybody have experiencing using this stove on a thru-hike? In >particular I would like to know how many uses you got out of your >fuel canisters (4 or 8 ounce) and how it performed at elevation >(10,000 plus feet). > >Thanks for any input ya have. > >Andy Brown >AT 2004 >PCT 2006 > > >_______________________________________________ >Cdt-l mailing list >Cdt-l at backcountry.net >http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/cdt-l > >_______________________________________________ >Cdt-l mailing list >Cdt-l at backcountry.net >http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/cdt-l From ronyon at comcast.net Fri Oct 17 13:22:05 2008 From: ronyon at comcast.net (R Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:22:05 -0700 Subject: [Cdt-l] MSR Pocket Rocket In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001c93085$4f94df70$6400a8c0@SMITHMOBILE> I would stick with alcohol, it does much better at high altitudes than fuel canisters. I was in the Wind Rivers this summer, brought along my Pocket Rocket because I had 2 canisters I wanted to use up. I had trouble maintaining pressure even with the full canister. It also also took considerably longer to boil water than with my alcohol stove. -Ron Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:40:09 -0400 From: "Andrew P. Brown" Subject: [Cdt-l] MSR Pocket Rocket To: cdt-l at backcountry.net Message-ID: <1224182409.7e34ab3cBROWNANP at student.gvsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hey All, I'm heading out on the CDT in April and am debating cashing in my alcohol stove for the MSR Pocket Rocket. Anybody have experiencing using this stove on a thru-hike? In particular I would like to know how many uses you got out of your fuel canisters (4 or 8 ounce) and how it performed at elevation (10,000 plus feet). Thanks for any input ya have. Andy Brown AT 2004 PCT 2006 From ken at gottawalk.com Fri Oct 17 15:11:49 2008 From: ken at gottawalk.com (Ken Powers) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:11:49 -0700 Subject: [Cdt-l] MSR Pocket Rocket In-Reply-To: <000001c93085$4f94df70$6400a8c0@SMITHMOBILE> References: <000001c93085$4f94df70$6400a8c0@SMITHMOBILE> Message-ID: <89366D8B879244C3821E30DF515F1001@Desktop2008> We've used canisters exclusively on all our hikes with a Gigapower stove. We have not had any issues at high elevation on CDT or ADT, and we cooked above 11,000 feet with no problems. We have found we are eating while alcohol users are still heating water. We planned on small canisters lasting 4+ days. We are cooking for 2 people. Boil 2+ cups in the morning and usually boil 4 cups in evening. Recently we have been able to stretch our fuel usage by using a caddy (my fleece jacket) instead of simmering. I think we are closer to 6 days on a small canister now. We have a collection of partial canisters in the closet. In cold weather you need to warm the canister. Its really fun to put a cold canister in your sleeping bag early in the morning. But cold canisters don't seem to burn well. As for finding the canisters on trail, good luck. Some of the larger towns may have them. See my webpage on shipping fuel. http://www.gottawalk.com/shipping_fuel.htm Ken Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:40:09 -0400 From: "Andrew P. Brown" Subject: [Cdt-l] MSR Pocket Rocket To: cdt-l at backcountry.net Message-ID: <1224182409.7e34ab3cBROWNANP at student.gvsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hey All, I'm heading out on the CDT in April and am debating cashing in my alcohol stove for the MSR Pocket Rocket. Anybody have experiencing using this stove on a thru-hike? In particular I would like to know how many uses you got out of your fuel canisters (4 or 8 ounce) and how it performed at elevation (10,000 plus feet). Thanks for any input ya have. Andy Brown AT 2004 PCT 2006 _______________________________________________ Cdt-l mailing list Cdt-l at backcountry.net http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/cdt-l From ericshawwhite at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 12:58:48 2008 From: ericshawwhite at yahoo.com (Eric Whte) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Cdt-l] stoves Message-ID: <99716.74170.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I may be a little out of touch with the current trends, but my MSR Whisterlite International is great. I can actually cook what I eat and not just soften my Lipton's or Ramen a little bit. While Coleman fuel (white gas) is getting more and more difficult to find in small re-supply towns along the PCT and CDT, I can go to the gas pump for a 45 cent refill. Car gas is a bit sooty compared to refined white gas, but the advantage to having a real warm & tasty meal at any altitude and being able to boil water is well worth the extra weight in my opinion. Mini Mart __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20081018/cd8ee1ac/attachment.html From ronyon at comcast.net Sat Oct 18 14:15:15 2008 From: ronyon at comcast.net (R Smith) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:15:15 -0700 Subject: [Cdt-l] MSR Pocket Rocket In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000e01c93155$dee30190$6400a8c0@SMITHMOBILE> There you have it -- two different, opposite answers to your question! I'll stick to my original assertion, though, that alcohol stoves are more trouble free, and except for Jetboil systems, I've never seen a gas-canister stove out-perform my alcohol stove. The old Trangia alcohol stoves do take a long time to boil water, but so do gas-canister stoves in cold, windy conditions. Other arguments against gas-canister stoves are cold weather, canister availability, compatibility, partial canisters, and disposal. All of that being said, part of the fun is trying out new things; if it turns out you don't like canisters, you can always switch back. -Ron 1. Re: MSR Pocket Rocket (R Smith) 2. Re: MSR Pocket Rocket (Ken Powers) Message: 1 I would stick with alcohol, it does much better at high altitudes than fuel canisters. I was in the Wind Rivers this summer, brought along my Pocket Rocket because I had 2 canisters I wanted to use up. I had trouble maintaining pressure even with the full canister. It also also took considerably longer to boil water than with my alcohol stove. -Ron Message: 2 We've used canisters exclusively on all our hikes with a Gigapower stove. We have not had any issues at high elevation on CDT or ADT, and we cooked above 11,000 feet with no problems. We have found we are eating while alcohol users are still heating water. We planned on small canisters lasting 4+ days. We are cooking for 2 people. Boil 2+ cups in the morning and usually boil 4 cups in evening. Recently we have been able to stretch our fuel usage by using a caddy (my fleece jacket) instead of simmering. I think we are closer to 6 days on a small canister now. We have a collection of partial canisters in the closet. In cold weather you need to warm the canister. Its really fun to put a cold canister in your sleeping bag early in the morning. But cold canisters don't seem to burn well. As for finding the canisters on trail, good luck. Some of the larger towns may have them. See my webpage on shipping fuel. http://www.gottawalk.com/shipping_fuel.htm Ken From sloetoe at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 13:17:49 2008 From: sloetoe at yahoo.com (Tom McGinnis) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Cdt-l] gas stoves/fuel Re: Cdt-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <108697.12354.qm@web110408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> FWIW, you can really improve the performance of your gas stove by using the lowest octane rating available -- 87, 86, or 85, 82 if you can swing it. "High-test" is specifically formulated to burn slower/cooler than low-test, and although your car might really like it, your stove really hates it. In my ol' Svea 123R and Optimus 8R, the only thing they ever saw was unleaded from the pump. (Actually, they saw their share of leaded back on the AT, but......) FWIW II, I pretty much go with alcohol now, actually get food faster than with the gas stove in cold-ish weather (single digit stuff). Cozy[s] rule. http://www.antigravitygear.com --- On Sun, 10/19/08, cdt-l-request at backcountry.net wrote: > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:58:48 -0700 (PDT) > From: Eric Whte > > I may be a little out of touch with the current trends, but > my MSR Whisterlite International is great. I can actually > cook what I eat and not just soften my Lipton's or Ramen > a little bit. While Coleman fuel (white gas) is getting more > and more difficult to find in small re-supply towns along > the PCT and CDT, I can go to the gas pump for a 45 cent > refill. Car gas is a bit sooty compared to refined white > gas, but the advantage to having a real warm & tasty > meal at any altitude and being able to boil water is well > worth the extra weight in my opinion. Mini Mart From eagleton at hotmail.com Sun Oct 19 23:40:26 2008 From: eagleton at hotmail.com (Jim Eagleton) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 00:40:26 -0400 Subject: [Cdt-l] Stoves Message-ID: There is no "best" stove, so most opinions are valid. However, I would rely on physics statements that apply to this universe. 1) Canister stoves work better at high altitudes than low altitudes. Less pressure outside allows the gas to escape faster. Also, the boiling point is lower so less heat has to be generated. The altitude affect was very pronounced with the butane stoves in the 70's that used pure butane. I could easily tell the difference between sea level, 8000 ft and 13000 ft. Since then they have added iso-butane and propane to the canisters which makes them much better (but not great) in cool weather. The fuel will unmix some as it is being used. So you will have less propane, and if you are trying to use up two old cylinders they will appear not to work as well. It is better to use them at high elevations, but they may be weak if it is cold or windy (at high elevations). (Yes, I know about choke flow, which says the altitude effect drops to zero when there is a lot of pressure in the canister, say warm propane. I call this the I don't care universe.) 2) No stove works even "good" in the wind. I say, white gas is better than butane which is better than alcohol. The wind screen can improve of any of these stoves. It may be slightly easier to build an effective windscreen for an alcohol stove because the flame is closer to the ground. However, it should not be too difficult to make a canister stove perform better than an alcohol stove. 3) If you are going to use an alcohol stove in cooler weather, yellow HEET (methanol) will be better than standard denatured alcohol (ethanol). Neither will be great at freezing (and it would be a boring race against a canister stove.) I prefer denatured alcohol when I can get it because it has more fuel value, most stoves are "tuned" to it, and it is much less deadly (but still very toxic) if you take a sip. However, these advantages are probably not worth the higher cost. The lower availability takes care of its self; No denatured, go to a gas station and buy HEET. 4) Last year I gave up my MSR Simmerlight white gas stove for an alcohol stove. Perceived fuel availability is why I kept using it, but white gas fuel availability is no longer an advantage (at least in the US.) I would go back to the Simmer light if I had to have the best performing stove for say, a 10 Day trip with 4 people or, I had to melt snow. 5) I did not test out the alcohol stove on many cold nights. I would jump in my bag and eat peanut butter and crackers. There were several windy nights when it took twice the fuel and twice the time to get my dinner cooked with alcohol. This is on top of the extra time that alcohol takes over a canister stove. 6) In Helena, I bought a Primus 3213 canister stove. The Base Camp was out of stock on the Pocket Rocket. I think they are similar price and weight, but you should check. The Pocket Rocket has a small wind diverter. The Pimus has a built in lighter. This may be extravagant, but I like the idea of making the most convenient stove even easier to use. I would highly recommend the large 8 oz canister. It is much more stable and reduces resupply issues. I used about 1/2 canister in 8 nights, but don't know how accurate or reproducible this is. The canister had one of those strips that you run under hot water. Also, fuel usage is individual based on cooking patterns. So far, I think the canister is best for me. 7) What was your AT 2004 trail name? Are you pictured in Ghosts pages? http://at04.com/photos/ghosts Rambler -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20081020/b60ae744/attachment.html From eagleton at hotmail.com Mon Oct 20 23:39:05 2008 From: eagleton at hotmail.com (Jim Eagleton) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:39:05 -0400 Subject: [Cdt-l] Stoves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How fast can your alcohol stove boil 0.5 L of water at 10 F??? Not sure it is a very scientific opinion to represent a discontinued Seva using unleaded fuel as comperable to an MSR stove using white gas. Rambler > > Message: 1> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:17:49 -0700 (PDT)> From: Tom McGinnis > Subject: [Cdt-l] gas stoves/fuel Re: Cdt-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue> 5> To: cdt-l at backcountry.net> Message-ID: <108697.12354.qm at web110408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii> > FWIW, you can really improve the performance of your gas stove by using the lowest octane rating available -- 87, 86, or 85, 82 if you can swing it. "High-test" is specifically formulated to burn slower/cooler than low-test, and although your car might really like it, your stove really hates it. In my ol' Svea 123R and Optimus 8R, the only thing they ever saw was unleaded from the pump. (Actually, they saw their share of leaded back on the AT, but......) > > FWIW II, I pretty much go with alcohol now, actually get food faster than with the gas stove in cold-ish weather (single digit stuff). Cozy[s] rule.> http://www.antigravitygear.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20081021/6f2a8e63/attachment.html From meta474 at gmail.com Mon Oct 20 23:43:33 2008 From: meta474 at gmail.com (Patrick) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:43:33 -0700 Subject: [Cdt-l] Stoves In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: Ultimately, in the view of a thru-hiker, I'll tell you right now the difference of 1 or 2 minutes in boil time means nothing. I never understand why people get all excited about boil times. I'm just happy when my stove only weighs an ounce. On Oct 20, 2008, at 9:39 PM, Jim Eagleton wrote: > How fast can your alcohol stove boil 0.5 L of water at 10 F??? > > Not sure it is a very scientific opinion to represent a discontinued > Seva using unleaded fuel as comperable to an MSR stove using white > gas. > > Rambler > > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:17:49 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Tom McGinnis > > Subject: [Cdt-l] gas stoves/fuel Re: Cdt-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue > > 5 > > To: cdt-l at backcountry.net > > Message-ID: <108697.12354.qm at web110408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > FWIW, you can really improve the performance of your gas stove by > using the lowest octane rating available -- 87, 86, or 85, 82 if you > can swing it. "High-test" is specifically formulated to burn slower/ > cooler than low-test, and although your car might really like it, > your stove really hates it. In my ol' Svea 123R and Optimus 8R, the > only thing they ever saw was unleaded from the pump. (Actually, they > saw their share of leaded back on the AT, but......) > > > > FWIW II, I pretty much go with alcohol now, actually get food > faster than with the gas stove in cold-ish weather (single digit > stuff). Cozy[s] rule. > > http://www.antigravitygear.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Cdt-l mailing list > Cdt-l at backcountry.net > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/cdt-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20081020/3e45cce9/attachment.html From BROWNANP at student.gvsu.edu Tue Oct 21 02:33:28 2008 From: BROWNANP at student.gvsu.edu (Andrew P. Brown) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 03:33:28 -0400 Subject: [Cdt-l] CDT Route Choices Message-ID: <1224574408.957bcd7cBROWNANP@student.gvsu.edu> Hey Everyone, Thanks for the opinions about the stoves. Good stuff to mull over while I get ready for the coming hike. I have a few more questions about route choices, if any former CDT hikers would be so kind as to opine. 1.) What is the optimal months for hiking the San Juans? I will be hiking Northbound this year and will make arrive there in early June. For the NOBO hikers, what was your experience in traveling the San Juans (if you did, or did not)? What are the pros/cons of these route options. 2.) Ferris Mountains vs. Great Divide 3.) Henry Lakes vs. Macks Inn Route Thanks again. Andy www.trailjournals.com/andybrown From buck at bucktrack.com Tue Oct 21 08:52:07 2008 From: buck at bucktrack.com (Bruce L. Nelson) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 09:52:07 -0400 Subject: [Cdt-l] CDT Route Choices Message-ID: <4e2d4c42e1b34ee3b3f11fe287a1c269@bucktrack.com> I found that the many route choices were one of the things that made the CDT so interesting. There are countless possible combinations and your plans are likely to change during the course of your hike even if you decide ahead of time what routes you'd like to hike. When I got to Cumbres Pass during the first week of June there was still deep snow in the San Juans and even in short stretches in northern New Mexico. As planned, I "flipped" up to South Pass, Wyoming and hiked south from there to give the San Juan snow time to melt. But I hit a summer blizzard a day after I left Rawlins and there was still several feet of snow in southern Wyoming and on into Colorado. I ended up road-walking a big chunk of northern Colorado to avoid the deep snow. (That's when I ran into Mags while he was volunteering for a bike race.) There was still more than enough deep snow when I got back up on the trail, I can assure you! I did manage to hike the San Juans, in early July. There was still plenty of snow in spots but it was doable with most of the route completely melted off. If I were planning a hike of just the San Juans, I'd probably go in August to make sure the previous winter's snow has melted and before the next winter's snow begins to fall. Thru-hiker's tend to not hit the San Juans at the ideal time, snow-wise, with NOBOS usually getting there too early and SOBOS often too late, thus the popularity of the Creede Cutoff. Like everyone, you'll ultimately want to "play it by ear." Most people hike the direct desert route between Rawlins and South Pass. That's what I did. When I hiked it there was plenty of water, and I think there is for most people if they plan ahead. I saw lots of wild horses, antelope and even found (and left) an arrowhead, so I liked the Great Divide route. Supposedly the Ferris Mountain route has more water and is more scenic but it's longer. I did the Mack's Inn route, and I think most thru-hikers do. To be truthful I took the Mack's Inn route because most people resupply there and I just went with the conventional wisdom. I would, however, do that route again. It cuts off a big loop thus saving many miles, and makes resupply easier. Summer is short for most people hiking the CDT. Although I hiked the San Juans and the Butte Route, it worked out well for me to save the extra time by doing the Mack's Inn route. Yup, I liked all the route choices on the CDT, even the many shorter purple route vs. red route options. Variety is the spice of life, and choices are good! Have fun, Colter http://www.bucktrack.com/Continental_Divide_Trail_Updates.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20081021/a36a6fe5/attachment.html From sloetoe at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 12:53:34 2008 From: sloetoe at yahoo.com (Tom McGinnis) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Cdt-l] stove noise Re: Cdt-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <250988.55162.qm@web110416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ### OK, I'll play. > Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:39:05 -0400 > From: Jim Eagleton > How fast can your alcohol stove boil 0.5 L of water at 10F??? ### The idea is go get food faster, isn't? I'd advise leaving the half-liter boil times to Backpacker. As posted, at about the same speed as the Svea or Optimus, given set-up and monkey time. And that will still be quicker than an MSR, which has added monkey time compared to the already assembled Svea/Optimus. This realization is what shocks many people to go with alcohol stoves. > Not sure it is a very scientific opinion to represent a > discontinued Seva using unleaded fuel as comperable to an > MSR stove using white gas. ### "Discontinued?!?!? Say it ain't so!!!" Hoo boy. First, the post was meant to assist the person with pumped-gas issues (being sooty compared to coleman). This is a symptom of using high-octane fuel instead of the (somewhat counter-intuitive) low-grade, regular. The post is below. If you knew about the origin of the stoves, you'd know that MSR ran into trouble when they designed out the fuels' versatility of the early stoves. The "all-fuels" versions were re-inventions. And properly, it's the Svea 123R and Optimus 8R -- the "R" indicating that the end of the primary fuels actuator was fashioned with a pin to poke through the jet orifice in case of gumming. Whoa. (That's World War II experience talking.) Oh, and if you hit wikipeadia on the Svea, you'll find http://www.optimus.se/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55&Itemid=98 ### Second, as I remember your post, you drew differences between wood alcohol and methyl alcohol and ethyl alcohol and denatured alcohol and their associated heating values, but unfortunately, got a good piece of things wrong. Wood alcohol IS methyl alcohol, and is what "de-natures" ethyl alcohol. The HEET brand (and any similar) products are either petroleum based or methyl alcohol, despite differences in bottle color, liquid color (added food coloring), PRICE, claimed improvements, etc.. The ONLY thing you want to do is read the back label for poison control. If it gives antidotes for methyl, buy it; if for petroleum, put it back on the shelf and back away. Lastly, there has been a rash of isopropyl-infused crap put on the market in the last few years, coming in bottles of yellow, red, and clear. It is crap to burn, WILL soot your pot, and should only be purchased as a last resort. (Petroleum should never be burned, as it will vaporize in your tent and explode.) ### Third, boil-time is related to altitude and temperature, not altitude alone. So if you are up high enough to have boiling water at 180*F, I hope you like your crunchy noodles. (Or, put differently, this is why boxes that advise "High Altitude Cooking Instructions" tell you to go longer, not shorter.) Gas stoves rule for larger groups, longer boils (like melting sneaux, as someone mentioned), or longish times between resupply (when the carry weight of alcohol/stove averages higher than the carry weight of gasoline/stove). I recall that to be around 14 days for solo, but I can't recall where I got it. Can easily be computed, though. Hope that helps. Oh, and, Cozy[s] rule. (Did I mention that?) > > > Message: 1> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:17:49 > -0700 (PDT)> From: Tom McGinnis > FWIW, you can really improve the performance of your gas stove by > using the lowest octane rating available -- 87, 86, or 85, > 82 if you can swing it. "High-test" is > specifically formulated to burn slower/cooler than low-test, > and although your car might really like it, your stove > really hates it. In my ol' Svea 123R and Optimus 8R, the > only thing they ever saw was unleaded from the pump. > (Actually, they saw their share of leaded back on the AT, > but......) > > FWIW II, I pretty much go with alcohol > now, actually get food faster than with the gas stove in > cold-ish weather (single digit stuff). Cozy[s] rule.> > http://www.antigravitygear.com From pmags at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 14:02:44 2008 From: pmags at yahoo.com (Paul Magnanti) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Cdt-l] Stoves and Routes Message-ID: <444732.56947.qm@web35204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> STOVES: My take on stoves... http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/Backpacking-and-Hiking-documents/stove_comparison.html BASIN: I found the designated CDT in the Basin to be great route. Wild horse, antelopes and wide open spaces. Being a history buff, I love walking along the great routes of the American West: The Pony Express, the Mormon immigration route, the Oregon Trail, etc. SAN JUANS: Early June is well, early for the San Juans. In a normal snow year, late June/early July is usually the best. Of course, as thru-hiker, you may not have that luxury. For a take on early June in the San Juans, read Sidewinder's CDT journal: http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=140572 Do and honest assessment of your navigation skills, endurance and love of snow. :) ************************************************************ The true harvest of my life is intangible.... a little stardust caught, a portion of the rainbow I have clutched --Thoreau http://www.pmags.com From slyatpct at aol.com Tue Oct 21 15:35:41 2008 From: slyatpct at aol.com (Sly) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:35:41 -0400 Subject: [Cdt-l] Heritage Forest Campaign Message-ID: <48FE3D1D.6040407@aol.com> Hey, Sorry for the politics, just want to advocate a bit. Save America's Last Wild Forests As it heads out the door, the Bush administration is handing the keys to our national forests over to the mining, timber and oil and gas industries. Its targets are the crown jewels of our national forest system - millions of acres of pristine landscapes in Alaska's Tongass Rainforest and Idaho's Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. Now the Administration has set its sights on Colorado's Rocky Mountains, where it is moving forward rapidly with a rulemaking that would remove the landmark Roadless Area Conservation Rule, the popular policy that protects the last one-third of the nation's most pristine forests for future generations to enjoy. It only takes a minute to sign up and send a letter in oppostition http://actionnetwork.org/campaign/colorado_wild_forests/g8ink7497d5djem? Sly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20081021/886a23ae/attachment.html From ericshawwhite at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 18:06:56 2008 From: ericshawwhite at yahoo.com (Eric Whte) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Cdt-l] stove noise Re: Cdt-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue 7 Message-ID: <234402.84860.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I am not so interested in the physics of these stoves;rather do these alcolhol stoves really cook noodles and rice? How many times do you have to refuel your alcohol stove to cook a decent meal? --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Tom McGinnis wrote: From: Tom McGinnis Subject: [Cdt-l] stove noise Re: Cdt-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue 7 To: cdt-l at backcountry.net Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 1:53 PM ### OK, I'll play. > Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:39:05 -0400 > From: Jim Eagleton > How fast can your alcohol stove boil 0.5 L of water at 10F??? ### The idea is go get food faster, isn't? I'd advise leaving the half-liter boil times to Backpacker. As posted, at about the same speed as the Svea or Optimus, given set-up and monkey time. And that will still be quicker than an MSR, which has added monkey time compared to the already assembled Svea/Optimus. This realization is what shocks many people to go with alcohol stoves. > Not sure it is a very scientific opinion to represent a > discontinued Seva using unleaded fuel as comperable to an > MSR stove using white gas. ### "Discontinued?!?!? Say it ain't so!!!" Hoo boy. First, the post was meant to assist the person with pumped-gas issues (being sooty compared to coleman). This is a symptom of using high-octane fuel instead of the (somewhat counter-intuitive) low-grade, regular. The post is below. If you knew about the origin of the stoves, you'd know that MSR ran into trouble when they designed out the fuels' versatility of the early stoves. The "all-fuels" versions were re-inventions. And properly, it's the Svea 123R and Optimus 8R -- the "R" indicating that the end of the primary fuels actuator was fashioned with a pin to poke through the jet orifice in case of gumming. Whoa. (That's World War II experience talking.) Oh, and if you hit wikipeadia on the Svea, you'll find http://www.optimus.se/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55&Itemid=98 ### Second, as I remember your post, you drew differences between wood alcohol and methyl alcohol and ethyl alcohol and denatured alcohol and their associated heating values, but unfortunately, got a good piece of things wrong. Wood alcohol IS methyl alcohol, and is what "de-natures" ethyl alcohol. The HEET brand (and any similar) products are either petroleum based or methyl alcohol, despite differences in bottle color, liquid color (added food coloring), PRICE, claimed improvements, etc.. The ONLY thing you want to do is read the back label for poison control. If it gives antidotes for methyl, buy it; if for petroleum, put it back on the shelf and back away. Lastly, there has been a rash of isopropyl-infused crap put on the market in the last few years, coming in bottles of yellow, red, and clear. It is crap to burn, WILL soot your pot, and should only be purchased as a last resort. (Petroleum should never be burned, as it will vaporize in your tent and explode.) ### Third, boil-time is related to altitude and temperature, not altitude alone. So if you are up high enough to have boiling water at 180*F, I hope you like your crunchy noodles. (Or, put differently, this is why boxes that advise "High Altitude Cooking Instructions" tell you to go longer, not shorter.) Gas stoves rule for larger groups, longer boils (like melting sneaux, as someone mentioned), or longish times between resupply (when the carry weight of alcohol/stove averages higher than the carry weight of gasoline/stove). I recall that to be around 14 days for solo, but I can't recall where I got it. Can easily be computed, though. Hope that helps. Oh, and, Cozy[s] rule. (Did I mention that?) > > > Message: 1> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:17:49 > -0700 (PDT)> From: Tom McGinnis > FWIW, you can really improve the performance of your gas stove by > using the lowest octane rating available -- 87, 86, or 85, > 82 if you can swing it. "High-test" is > specifically formulated to burn slower/cooler than low-test, > and although your car might really like it, your stove > really hates it. In my ol' Svea 123R and Optimus 8R, the > only thing they ever saw was unleaded from the pump. > (Actually, they saw their share of leaded back on the AT, > but......) > > FWIW II, I pretty much go with alcohol > now, actually get food faster than with the gas stove in > cold-ish weather (single digit stuff). Cozy[s] rule.> > http://www.antigravitygear.com _______________________________________________ Cdt-l mailing list Cdt-l at backcountry.net http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/cdt-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20081021/c5771314/attachment.html From sloetoe at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 18:17:56 2008 From: sloetoe at yahoo.com (Tom McGinnis) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Cdt-l] stove noise Re: Cdt-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: <234402.84860.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <607939.51148.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Eric Whte wrote: > I am not so interested in the physics of these stoves; rather > do these alcolhol stoves really cook noodles and rice? How > many times do you have to refuel your alcohol stove to cook > a decent meal? ### Most alcohol stove designs hold 2 oz or better. If your stove has a poor wind screen (or it's really windy right where you're cooking), you might (*might*) need to refuel with an extra ounce. Solo, I've never had to relight, down into single digits. (Cooking for three, I have.) Mostly, less than 2 ozs fuel boils more than 3 cups cold water pretty well. I plan on six meals per 12 oz bottle, and usually end up with eight or more in summer. I cook one meal per day; for summer it's dinner, for winter, it's lunch. From lawtong at hotmail.com Thu Oct 23 11:10:18 2008 From: lawtong at hotmail.com (Lawton Grinter) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 10:10:18 -0600 Subject: [Cdt-l] Heritage Forest Campaign Message-ID: Hi All, Sly is right on with his thread on the Heritage Forests Campaign. I would recommend signing on as someone that wants the CDT to remain wild and intact. http://actionnetwork.org/campaign/colorado_wild_forests/g8ink7497d5djem Roadless Areas are 1 step below Wilderness Areas and if the Bush Administration is allowed to get rid of the 2001 Roadless Rule, it could directly impact a CDT'ers hiking experience in the form of more roads & more logging on or near the trail, and more oil & gas drilling projects in these areas. And just for a little background info . . . The Heritage Forests Campaign (HFC) is an alliance of conservationists, wildlife advocates, clergy, educators, scientists, and other Americans working together to uphold protection of our National Forests. HFC has 30+ partner organizations including the Colorado Environmental Coalition (CEC). And for the sake of full disclosure, I work as a Conservation Analyst for a non-profit here in Crested Butte and we are partnered with CEC. Bottom line, if the 2001 Roadless Rule is overturned by the Bush Administration the CDT could end up looking a bit different in the near future. It might not hurt to write your Senators and Congressman either. You can find snail mail and e-mail addresses for your Senators and Representatives here: http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ Happy Trails, -Disco _________________________________________________________________ You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20081023/10c1bad2/attachment.html From taterno at cox.net Thu Oct 23 13:01:53 2008 From: taterno at cox.net (The Incredible Bulk) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:01:53 -0400 Subject: [Cdt-l] Heritage Forest Campaign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20081023140153.FYQU8.6125.imail@fed1rmwml38> I signed and sent the letter. I hope we can make a difference. The Incredible Bulk ---- Lawton Grinter wrote: ============= Hi All, Sly is right on with his thread on the Heritage Forests Campaign. I would recommend signing on as someone that wants the CDT to remain wild and intact. http://actionnetwork.org/campaign/colorado_wild_forests/g8ink7497d5djem Roadless Areas are 1 step below Wilderness Areas and if the Bush Administration is allowed to get rid of the 2001 Roadless Rule, it could directly impact a CDT'ers hiking experience in the form of more roads & more logging on or near the trail, and more oil & gas drilling projects in these areas. And just for a little background info . . . The Heritage Forests Campaign (HFC) is an alliance of conservationists, wildlife advocates, clergy, educators, scientists, and other Americans working together to uphold protection of our National Forests. HFC has 30+ partner organizations including the Colorado Environmental Coalition (CEC). And for the sake of full disclosure, I work as a Conservation Analyst for a non-profit here in Crested Butte and we are partnered with CEC. Bottom line, if the 2001 Roadless Rule is overturned by the Bush Administration the CDT could end up looking a bit different in the near future. It might not hurt to write your Senators and Congressman either. You can find snail mail and e-mail addresses for your Senators and Representatives here: http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ Happy Trails, -Disco _________________________________________________________________ You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/ From jonathan at phlumf.com Thu Oct 23 14:35:21 2008 From: jonathan at phlumf.com (Jonathan Ley) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 12:35:21 -0700 Subject: [Cdt-l] Heritage Forest Campaign In-Reply-To: <20081023140153.FYQU8.6125.imail@fed1rmwml38> References: <20081023140153.FYQU8.6125.imail@fed1rmwml38> Message-ID: <4900D1F9.20502@phlumf.com> I always add a little personal angle to these kinds of messages, mentioning that I've walked the entire way from Mexico to Canada through these forests, and explain what impact they've had on my life & what value they have for future generations. I figure it might get a little more attention than the generic e-mail text, and might give the message a bit more weight as there is a unique perspective being offered. If you walked the walk, why not use it? -Jonathan The Incredible Bulk wrote: > I signed and sent the letter. I hope we can make a difference. > > The Incredible Bulk > > > ---- Lawton Grinter wrote: > > ============= > > Hi All, > > Sly is right on with his thread on the Heritage Forests Campaign. > > I would recommend signing on as someone that wants the CDT to remain wild and intact. > http://actionnetwork.org/campaign/colorado_wild_forests/g8ink7497d5djem > > Roadless Areas are 1 step below Wilderness Areas and if the Bush Administration is allowed to get rid of the 2001 > Roadless Rule, it could directly impact a CDT'ers hiking experience in the form of more roads & more logging on or > near the trail, and more oil & gas drilling projects in these areas. > > And just for a little background info . . . The Heritage Forests Campaign (HFC) is an alliance of conservationists, > wildlife advocates, clergy, educators, scientists, and other Americans working together to uphold protection > of our National Forests. HFC has 30+ partner organizations including the Colorado Environmental Coalition (CEC). > And for the sake of full disclosure, I work as a Conservation Analyst for a non-profit here in Crested Butte and > we are partnered with CEC. > > Bottom line, if the 2001 Roadless Rule is overturned by the Bush Administration the CDT could end up looking a bit > different in the near future. It might not hurt to write your Senators and Congressman either. You can find snail > mail and e-mail addresses for your Senators and Representatives here: > > http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ > > Happy Trails, > > -Disco > > > _________________________________________________________________ > You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Cdt-l mailing list > Cdt-l at backcountry.net > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/cdt-l > > From daybreak1999 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 28 20:29:57 2008 From: daybreak1999 at hotmail.com (Patrick 'Daybreak' Stanley) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:29:57 -0400 Subject: [Cdt-l] Henry's lake route Message-ID: I hiked Henry's Lake route this summer. As I'm doing the CDT over 4 summers, I have the luxury of time. This section doesn't get a lot of thru hiker traffic. That said, I really enjoyed most of the hike. I hiked it trail North to south. I hiked through up to a foot of hail that had washed down the trail as I started away from the cutoff. Luckily, I took cover and missed the actual hail storm. You have about a half day in forested mountains and pass a deep gorge with a raging stream in early season (early July). Saw a bear in this area. This is followed by a day of dirt roads in high grasslands with some outcrops and great views of Henry's Lake depending on which signs you follow. The day ends with about a 4 mile highway walk crossing a lower valley to a great rushing stream and campsite at the mouth of a valley. Crossing the valley, I saw a couple herds of antelope. You go up this river valley and over a 10,000 foot alpine pass and to an optional peak to bag (not for the faint of heart). I encountered a few miles of snow and an empty trail that will be gone during thru hiker season. You head down some nice trails and open meadows to a pass where you can hitch to West yellowstone or actually detour a mile to a Super 8. Easy hitch in, reasonable hitch out. West Yellowstone has everything except permits. Don't even bother to ask, ultimately they call the backcountry office at Old Faithful and put you on the phone. Just call them yourself. FYI get a permit (over the closest phone to Yellowstone), it was free and painless. The ranger was interested, supportive, and informative. More users = more money. From the pass south it is mostly ATV/snowmobile trail(logging road) near a ridgeline back to the south end of the cutoff. There is some hiker only trail that is completed and easy to find leaving the pass. Northbound however, you would miss it if you follow the signs unless and until they are changed. The new northbound section signs are about a mile or 5 north of the old trail via an ATV trail. This section had a nice high valley but overall was pretty boring with straight roads and logged areas. During thru hiker season, water is a real issue from W. Yellowstone south if you don't venture from the trail. I found plenty of water but it was early July with some snow still around. Think about fetching water like going to some of the AT Shelters or getting water way down the hill in PA. Daybreak -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20081028/1046a178/attachment.html From daybreak1999 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 28 21:08:50 2008 From: daybreak1999 at hotmail.com (Patrick 'Daybreak' Stanley) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 22:08:50 -0400 Subject: [Cdt-l] Cooking Rice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How about cooking that rice? When I swapped my very good simmering Coleman(AT) and poorly simmering whisperlite international, for esbits (PCT) and then alcohol(AMT/CDT), I gave up on rice dishes. The time and hassle of refilling the alcohol stove was not worth it. (Nor was carrying a cozy or simmering ring or mailing fuel drops for cartridges or listening to a jet engine in the wilderness...) A taller alchol stove would give added capacity but my experience is that once hot, the alcohol stove was too hot for rice and needed to be watched too carefully for my tastes. For thru hikes, keep it simple stupid is my motto. But then again I really miss Zatarains' Red Beans and Rice. Maybe a wood stove... Daybreak -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20081028/0e26c2d8/attachment.html From sloetoe at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 18:09:39 2008 From: sloetoe at yahoo.com (Tom McGinnis) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Cdt-l] rice Re: Cdt-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <76853.43915.qm@web110414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ### Here's a thought: if you're this defeatist on the cooking of rice, you probably don't belong out there in the first place. Just a thought, but.... > Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 22:08:50 -0400 > From: Patrick 'Daybreak' Stanley > > Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] Cooking Rice > > How about cooking that rice? > > When I swapped my very good simmering Coleman(AT) and > poorly simmering whisperlite international, for esbits (PCT) > and then alcohol(AMT/CDT), I gave up on rice dishes. The > time and hassle of refilling the alcohol stove was not worth > it. (Nor was carrying a cozy or simmering ring or mailing > fuel drops for cartridges or listening to a jet engine in > the wilderness...) A taller alchol stove would give added > capacity but my experience is that once hot, the alcohol > stove was too hot for rice and needed to be watched too > carefully for my tastes. For thru hikes, keep it simple > stupid is my motto. But then again I really miss > Zatarains' Red Beans and Rice. Maybe a wood stove... > > Daybreak