[Cdt-l] Follow up to Travis & GPS comments by Trew

Wed Jan 22 22:54:40 CST 2014

Travis makes a very good point. 

To clarify my previous post:  Leaving Yellowstone  for the Mack's Inn cut
off route  heading for the ID/MT line is not impossible to find without a
GPS.  The guy I was hiking with and I missed the connecting trail at Mack's
Inn and walked about 3 miles north on the road out of Mack's Inn before we
realized we were definitely missing the cut off.  GPS came on and we cut a
cross country diagonal through pine and picked up the route and followed it
successfully.  For those times you do get off trail the GPS can help remove
some of the anxiety some of us feel when "lost."  One can think of a GPS
like taking a Xanax pill.  A GPS can calm you down and get you back on the
right path.  I learned about Xanax when I was in my cancer part of life.
Great stuff!!  And being an expert in map and compass is very important.  

I have done a lot of off trail hiking in the La Garitta Wilderness and a few
other places with only map and compass.  I do pre-date GPS by a few years.
I am thankful for that.  And I personally see no need for a GPS anywhere in
Colorado.  Never used one in the parts of WY I hiked, either.  And hiking
with only a map and compass is a great  boost for one's self-confidence in
outdoor navigation.   Of course, being completely lost can almost bring one
to tears and wishing they had stayed home.    I  have never been that lost,
I am just saying.....

-Trew

From: cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
On Behalf Of Travis Naibert
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 8:43 PM
To: cdt-l at backcountry.net
Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] Cdt-l Digest, Vol 76, Issue 37

"I wouldn't try that section of the CDT without a GPS" -Trew

I am sure that Trew is a great person and that I would enjoy hiking with
him. I am also sure he didn't mean the above statement in exactly the way I
interpreted it. But if I were someone new to this forum and I read Trew's
statement I would probably start to get a little bit worried about hiking
the Montana CDT section he is referring to unless i was familiar with GPS.
Especially because he posts a lot in the forum and seems like a pretty
knowledgeable hiker.

There has been so much discussion recently about GPS waypoints, how to use
the GPS, how to program the GPS, etc., that I kind of feel like we may be
giving the wrong impression of the CDT. So, with no ill-will towards those
who want to discuss GPS stuff, I would like to point out a few things.

1) People were hiking the CDT before hand-held GPS existed. The trail was
probably even harder to follow back then. Those people did not die.

2) People still hike the CDT without GPS. I did so in 2011. Many people that
year carried GPS but used them sparingly. I would go so far as to say most
people use them sparingly.

3) A lot of people find enjoyment in trying to navigate with just a map and
careful attention to the terrain. It is a skill that you get better at the
more you practice. It is arguably the most exciting thing about the CDT when
compared to trails that don't require any navigation, like the PCT. Try it!

4) This forum is obviously for information about the CDT, and there are
sections that are easier and sections that are harder. That is worth
discussing. Any pertinent information is worth discussing. But be aware that
the way you say things could potentially scare future-hikers away from what
could otherwise be a dream, a life-long goal, a grand adventure, etc. So be
cautious when choosing words.

When I hiked the PCT I was just finishing college and I had to start in
southern CA in mid-may when my last semester ended, much later than "normal"
start time. The PCT-L had so many dire warnings about lack of water that I
seriously considered skipping the entire desert section and instead just
starting in the sierra nevada. I started May 19th at the mexican border and
hiked the desert. It was hot. It was miles between water sources. I made it
just fine. It was much less scary than I thought it would be.

I hope all this doesn't come off as rude or angry, because that is not my
intention. I think GPS is a powerful tool. I think Jerry Brown's data for
the trail is going to make it more comfortable for a whole group of hikers
who might have otherwise never considered doing this thru-hike (or any
sections). Despite the fact that I like a lot of solitude on the trail, I
think it is ultimately good for the CDT if more people hike it, enjoy it,
advocate for it, do trail maintenance on it, and ultimately help protect
some of this country's most beautiful land. I would just like people to know
that, with a little navigational practice, there isn't a single step of the
CDT where you should feel required to go out and buy a piece of technology
to carry around in your pocket and help you on your way.

Good luck to the class of 2014!

Suspect

P.S. as a side note for those who are considering the gila versus black
range route debate, I believe the black range got toasted pretty well in the
last fire, whereas the middle fork of the gila seems to have been left more
unscathed (though the mountains around it were torched). flooding and downed
trees will obviously be an issue for a few years. That said, the middle fork
was one of my favorite sections of the entire trail, so if that is your
choice I doubt you'll be disappointed.

On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 5:51 PM, <cdt-l-request at backcountry.net> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: etrax 30 Question- Never Lost (Doug Carlson)
   2. Re: etrax 30 Question (Larry Swearingen)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:41:03 -0700
From: "Doug Carlson" <doug-sue at centurylink.net>
Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question- Never Lost
To: <cdt-l at backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <003f01cf17c3$09733340$1c5999c0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

With a GPS there is never any reason to be lost.  I do not use the Ley maps
when out on the CDT for one reason.  No waypoint coordinates on them.  I use
Ley's maps to make my own route on my Delorme map program which I print out
in whatever scale I think is best for that section of trail.  Along the
route I place precise map coordinates at enough places so if I do wander
off, I can set my GPS for one of those coordinates and get back on trail.
Those exact coordinates along the route also help me pinpoint my exact
location at different times.

When I started in Columbus last year Keith mentioned that I was the first
one he had seen starting out that didn't have Ley's maps printed out.  He
was going to show me exactly where the water cache we were placing was on
Ley's maps which I didn't have.  I simply set the waypoint for that cache on
that route and 2 days later had no problem in locating the exact bush in
southern NM where the water jug was hidden.  In some ways I am very inept
with the GPS but where it matters, it works for me.

I have hiked over 50% of the CDT in Colorado.  In Colorado I see no reason
to use a GPS except for the altimeter, time, date, trip mileage....  Ok,
maybe there are a few reasons.  But Trail Illustrated maps cover the entire
state of Colorado very well and with the TI maps, compass, no need for a GPS
there.  Heading out of Yellowstone through Mack's Inn and that route, GPS is
very helpful.  I wouldn't try that section of the CDT without a GPS.

This is what I would like to see:  A GPS that is also loaded with pepper
spray for that section of trail from around Yellowstone area up to Canada.
It would be a perfect invention since most hikers would already have their
GPS units out and on the ready.  Of course, by the time on figured out how
to toggle into the right setting to activate the pepper the bear would
probably be picking his teeth with the hikers bones.

-Trew

From: cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
On Behalf Of Larry Swearingen
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:47 PM
To: Tjamrog08
Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question

I have been doing that.  When I do that I need to setup the gps for whatever
coordinate

system the map uses so I've been practicing for that using my BLM maps and
also the

Bear Creek maps.  I've been looking up the Coordinates to a known Bear Creek
WayPoint

after changing the Coordinate System to that used on the BLM Maps and
locating that point

on the BLM Map.  BLM map coordinate system is not the same as those used on
BC Maps.

However the gps will convert the way point coordinates to whatever you set
it up for.

I agree though.  The middle of the Gila Wilderness is not the place to try
and figure this out

for the first time.  :>)  I do hope to not get so far lost that I'm off a
BLM Map.  That would be Lost !

Larry

HooDad

From: Tjamrog08 <mailto:tjamrog at me.com>

Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:07 PM

To: Larry Swearingen <mailto:larry.swearingen at frontier.com>

Cc: Frank Gilliland <mailto:frankgilliland at gmail.com>  ;
cdt-l at backcountry.net

Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question

You got it, HooDad.

Not covered in GPS manuals is being sure to align the settings on your GPS
with whatever physical maps coordinate format it has along the margins. You
often need to do a little decimal estimation, as the points along the
margins are marked in only three or four places.

I was using  Jerry Brown's maps, and it took a bit of for me to be able to
(1) establish a GPS reading where I as at and then (2) relate that to the
physical map.  I'd practice this before I went.

It saved my ass twice when I was so far off the CDT that I was off of the
narrow corridor on the map.  What you do is hit Your exact "lost"  location
on the GPS, then orient the map magnetically, and then see just how far off
and in what direction you'd have to travel ( usually bushwhack) back to get
to the CDT.

You must know how to do this, and you might not be calm enough to figure it
out the process  if you start to panic wandering around out there.

Yes, practice.

I would also practice at home navigating to a single waypoint.

Uncle Tom

.

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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 19:50:49 -0500
From: "Larry Swearingen" <larry.swearingen at frontier.com>
Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
To: <bcss at bresnan.net>, "'Tjamrog08'" <tjamrog at me.com>
Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID: <8B6086691FFA4275B1D2D0ACE5B0C3D4 at LarryPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hello jerry,
Thank you for that explanation.  It was very helpful.

Larry Hoodad Swearingen

From: bcss at bresnan.net
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:54 PM
To: 'Larry Swearingen' ; 'Tjamrog08'
Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
Subject: RE: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question

If by ?BLM Maps? you are referring to USGS topo maps you are correct, they
don?t match.  The topo maps are all projected in North American Datum of
1927 (NAD27) and the BC waypoints are in World Geodetic System of 1984
(WGS84).  For most purposes, NAD83 (North American Datum of 1983) is almost
identical to WGS84.  (NAD 83 is the USA?s implementation of WGS84) If you
look at the lower left corner of most of these maps it will tell you the
difference in position between NAD83 and NAD27. The wording is something
like ?To place on the predicted North American Datum 1983 move the
projection lines 4 meters north and 51 meters east as shown by the dashed
corner ticks.?

The important thing is to match the coordinates on the map you are using
with the settings in the GPS.  To make the Bear Creek waypoints match the
NAD 27 maps in your Etrex  go to ?setup?, ?position format?, ?Map Datum? and
change the setting to NAD 27 CONUS.  Set the Position Format to UTM UPS.
Then the gps will work with the UTM grid on the older maps. (Remember to
switch it back for the BC maps.)

The reason the BC maps are in WGS84 is because it is the easier for users.
The native language of GPS receivers is WGS84, and they come set up in that
datum when they are purchased.  The Mapbook maps are gridded in WGS84 to
facilitate this.

best wishes,

Jerry Brown

mailto:bcss at bresnan.net

www.bearcreeksurvey.com

From: cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
On Behalf Of Larry Swearingen
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:47 PM
To: Tjamrog08
Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question