[Cdt-l] Cdt-l Digest, Vol 76, Issue 39
Todd Russell
artnmotion at maine.rr.com
Thu Jan 23 08:26:26 CST 2014
Although I am not a Luddite, I am amazed by all the techno-talk
concerning GPS for hiking the CDT. Should not hikers of the CDT be
more self-reliant? Surely, a GPS is not mandatory. Bill Gates, Steve
Jobs, and Mark Zuckerberg made significant contributions to
technology, but my real hero’s are still George Mallory, Gertrude
Ederle, Sir Francis Chichester, and Tensing Norgay. Overcoming great
physical and mental challenges define authentic people.
Slim Gym from Maine
On Jan 22, 2014, at 11:54 PM, cdt-l-request at backcountry.net wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Follow up to Travis & GPS comments by Trew (Doug Carlson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 21:54:40 -0700
> From: "Doug Carlson" <doug-sue at centurylink.net>
> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] Follow up to Travis & GPS comments by Trew
> To: "'Travis Naibert'" <tnaibert at gmail.com>
> Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <007d01cf17f7$3a30c770$ae925650$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Travis makes a very good point.
>
>
>
> To clarify my previous post: Leaving Yellowstone for the Mack's
> Inn cut
> off route heading for the ID/MT line is not impossible to find
> without a
> GPS. The guy I was hiking with and I missed the connecting trail at
> Mack's
> Inn and walked about 3 miles north on the road out of Mack's Inn
> before we
> realized we were definitely missing the cut off. GPS came on and we
> cut a
> cross country diagonal through pine and picked up the route and
> followed it
> successfully. For those times you do get off trail the GPS can help
> remove
> some of the anxiety some of us feel when "lost." One can think of a
> GPS
> like taking a Xanax pill. A GPS can calm you down and get you back
> on the
> right path. I learned about Xanax when I was in my cancer part of
> life.
> Great stuff!! And being an expert in map and compass is very
> important.
>
>
>
> I have done a lot of off trail hiking in the La Garitta Wilderness
> and a few
> other places with only map and compass. I do pre-date GPS by a few
> years.
> I am thankful for that. And I personally see no need for a GPS
> anywhere in
> Colorado. Never used one in the parts of WY I hiked, either. And
> hiking
> with only a map and compass is a great boost for one's self-
> confidence in
> outdoor navigation. Of course, being completely lost can almost
> bring one
> to tears and wishing they had stayed home. I have never been
> that lost,
> I am just saying.....
>
>
>
> -Trew
>
>
>
> From: cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net
> ]
> On Behalf Of Travis Naibert
> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 8:43 PM
> To: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] Cdt-l Digest, Vol 76, Issue 37
>
>
>
> "I wouldn't try that section of the CDT without a GPS" -Trew
>
>
>
> I am sure that Trew is a great person and that I would enjoy hiking
> with
> him. I am also sure he didn't mean the above statement in exactly
> the way I
> interpreted it. But if I were someone new to this forum and I read
> Trew's
> statement I would probably start to get a little bit worried about
> hiking
> the Montana CDT section he is referring to unless i was familiar
> with GPS.
> Especially because he posts a lot in the forum and seems like a pretty
> knowledgeable hiker.
>
>
>
> There has been so much discussion recently about GPS waypoints, how
> to use
> the GPS, how to program the GPS, etc., that I kind of feel like we
> may be
> giving the wrong impression of the CDT. So, with no ill-will towards
> those
> who want to discuss GPS stuff, I would like to point out a few things.
>
>
>
> 1) People were hiking the CDT before hand-held GPS existed. The
> trail was
> probably even harder to follow back then. Those people did not die.
>
>
>
> 2) People still hike the CDT without GPS. I did so in 2011. Many
> people that
> year carried GPS but used them sparingly. I would go so far as to
> say most
> people use them sparingly.
>
>
>
> 3) A lot of people find enjoyment in trying to navigate with just a
> map and
> careful attention to the terrain. It is a skill that you get better
> at the
> more you practice. It is arguably the most exciting thing about the
> CDT when
> compared to trails that don't require any navigation, like the PCT.
> Try it!
>
>
>
> 4) This forum is obviously for information about the CDT, and there
> are
> sections that are easier and sections that are harder. That is worth
> discussing. Any pertinent information is worth discussing. But be
> aware that
> the way you say things could potentially scare future-hikers away
> from what
> could otherwise be a dream, a life-long goal, a grand adventure,
> etc. So be
> cautious when choosing words.
>
>
>
> When I hiked the PCT I was just finishing college and I had to start
> in
> southern CA in mid-may when my last semester ended, much later than
> "normal"
> start time. The PCT-L had so many dire warnings about lack of water
> that I
> seriously considered skipping the entire desert section and instead
> just
> starting in the sierra nevada. I started May 19th at the mexican
> border and
> hiked the desert. It was hot. It was miles between water sources. I
> made it
> just fine. It was much less scary than I thought it would be.
>
>
>
> I hope all this doesn't come off as rude or angry, because that is
> not my
> intention. I think GPS is a powerful tool. I think Jerry Brown's
> data for
> the trail is going to make it more comfortable for a whole group of
> hikers
> who might have otherwise never considered doing this thru-hike (or any
> sections). Despite the fact that I like a lot of solitude on the
> trail, I
> think it is ultimately good for the CDT if more people hike it,
> enjoy it,
> advocate for it, do trail maintenance on it, and ultimately help
> protect
> some of this country's most beautiful land. I would just like people
> to know
> that, with a little navigational practice, there isn't a single step
> of the
> CDT where you should feel required to go out and buy a piece of
> technology
> to carry around in your pocket and help you on your way.
>
>
>
> Good luck to the class of 2014!
>
>
>
> Suspect
>
>
>
> P.S. as a side note for those who are considering the gila versus
> black
> range route debate, I believe the black range got toasted pretty
> well in the
> last fire, whereas the middle fork of the gila seems to have been
> left more
> unscathed (though the mountains around it were torched). flooding
> and downed
> trees will obviously be an issue for a few years. That said, the
> middle fork
> was one of my favorite sections of the entire trail, so if that is
> your
> choice I doubt you'll be disappointed.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 5:51 PM, <cdt-l-request at backcountry.net>
> wrote:
>
> Send Cdt-l mailing list submissions to
> cdt-l at backcountry.net
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/cdt-l
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> cdt-l-request at backcountry.net
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> cdt-l-owner at backcountry.net
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Cdt-l digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: etrax 30 Question- Never Lost (Doug Carlson)
> 2. Re: etrax 30 Question (Larry Swearingen)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:41:03 -0700
> From: "Doug Carlson" <doug-sue at centurylink.net>
> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question- Never Lost
> To: <cdt-l at backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <003f01cf17c3$09733340$1c5999c0$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> With a GPS there is never any reason to be lost. I do not use the
> Ley maps
> when out on the CDT for one reason. No waypoint coordinates on
> them. I use
> Ley's maps to make my own route on my Delorme map program which I
> print out
> in whatever scale I think is best for that section of trail. Along
> the
> route I place precise map coordinates at enough places so if I do
> wander
> off, I can set my GPS for one of those coordinates and get back on
> trail.
> Those exact coordinates along the route also help me pinpoint my exact
> location at different times.
>
>
>
> When I started in Columbus last year Keith mentioned that I was the
> first
> one he had seen starting out that didn't have Ley's maps printed
> out. He
> was going to show me exactly where the water cache we were placing
> was on
> Ley's maps which I didn't have. I simply set the waypoint for that
> cache on
> that route and 2 days later had no problem in locating the exact
> bush in
> southern NM where the water jug was hidden. In some ways I am very
> inept
> with the GPS but where it matters, it works for me.
>
>
>
> I have hiked over 50% of the CDT in Colorado. In Colorado I see no
> reason
> to use a GPS except for the altimeter, time, date, trip mileage....
> Ok,
> maybe there are a few reasons. But Trail Illustrated maps cover the
> entire
> state of Colorado very well and with the TI maps, compass, no need
> for a GPS
> there. Heading out of Yellowstone through Mack's Inn and that
> route, GPS is
> very helpful. I wouldn't try that section of the CDT without a GPS.
>
>
>
> This is what I would like to see: A GPS that is also loaded with
> pepper
> spray for that section of trail from around Yellowstone area up to
> Canada.
> It would be a perfect invention since most hikers would already have
> their
> GPS units out and on the ready. Of course, by the time on figured
> out how
> to toggle into the right setting to activate the pepper the bear would
> probably be picking his teeth with the hikers bones.
>
>
>
> -Trew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net
> ]
> On Behalf Of Larry Swearingen
> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:47 PM
> To: Tjamrog08
> Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>
>
>
> I have been doing that. When I do that I need to setup the gps for
> whatever
> coordinate
>
> system the map uses so I've been practicing for that using my BLM
> maps and
> also the
>
> Bear Creek maps. I've been looking up the Coordinates to a known
> Bear Creek
> WayPoint
>
> after changing the Coordinate System to that used on the BLM Maps and
> locating that point
>
> on the BLM Map. BLM map coordinate system is not the same as those
> used on
> BC Maps.
>
> However the gps will convert the way point coordinates to whatever
> you set
> it up for.
>
>
>
> I agree though. The middle of the Gila Wilderness is not the place
> to try
> and figure this out
>
> for the first time. :>) I do hope to not get so far lost that I'm
> off a
> BLM Map. That would be Lost !
>
>
>
> Larry
>
> HooDad
>
>
>
> From: Tjamrog08 <mailto:tjamrog at me.com>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:07 PM
>
> To: Larry Swearingen <mailto:larry.swearingen at frontier.com>
>
> Cc: Frank Gilliland <mailto:frankgilliland at gmail.com> ;
> cdt-l at backcountry.net
>
> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>
>
>
> You got it, HooDad.
>
> Not covered in GPS manuals is being sure to align the settings on
> your GPS
> with whatever physical maps coordinate format it has along the
> margins. You
> often need to do a little decimal estimation, as the points along the
> margins are marked in only three or four places.
>
> I was using Jerry Brown's maps, and it took a bit of for me to be
> able to
> (1) establish a GPS reading where I as at and then (2) relate that
> to the
> physical map. I'd practice this before I went.
>
> It saved my ass twice when I was so far off the CDT that I was off
> of the
> narrow corridor on the map. What you do is hit Your exact "lost"
> location
> on the GPS, then orient the map magnetically, and then see just how
> far off
> and in what direction you'd have to travel ( usually bushwhack) back
> to get
> to the CDT.
>
> You must know how to do this, and you might not be calm enough to
> figure it
> out the process if you start to panic wandering around out there.
>
> Yes, practice.
>
> I would also practice at home navigating to a single waypoint.
>
>
>
> Uncle Tom
>
>
>
> .
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 19:50:49 -0500
> From: "Larry Swearingen" <larry.swearingen at frontier.com>
> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
> To: <bcss at bresnan.net>, "'Tjamrog08'" <tjamrog at me.com>
> Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <8B6086691FFA4275B1D2D0ACE5B0C3D4 at LarryPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hello jerry,
> Thank you for that explanation. It was very helpful.
>
> Larry Hoodad Swearingen
>
> From: bcss at bresnan.net
> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:54 PM
> To: 'Larry Swearingen' ; 'Tjamrog08'
> Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: RE: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>
> If by ?BLM Maps? you are referring to USGS topo maps you are
> correct, they
> don?t match. The topo maps are all projected in North American
> Datum of
> 1927 (NAD27) and the BC waypoints are in World Geodetic System of 1984
> (WGS84). For most purposes, NAD83 (North American Datum of 1983) is
> almost
> identical to WGS84. (NAD 83 is the USA?s implementation of WGS84)
> If you
> look at the lower left corner of most of these maps it will tell you
> the
> difference in position between NAD83 and NAD27. The wording is
> something
> like ?To place on the predicted North American Datum 1983 move the
> projection lines 4 meters north and 51 meters east as shown by the
> dashed
> corner ticks.?
>
>
>
> The important thing is to match the coordinates on the map you are
> using
> with the settings in the GPS. To make the Bear Creek waypoints
> match the
> NAD 27 maps in your Etrex go to ?setup?, ?position format?, ?Map
> Datum? and
> change the setting to NAD 27 CONUS. Set the Position Format to UTM
> UPS.
> Then the gps will work with the UTM grid on the older maps.
> (Remember to
> switch it back for the BC maps.)
>
>
>
> The reason the BC maps are in WGS84 is because it is the easier for
> users.
> The native language of GPS receivers is WGS84, and they come set up
> in that
> datum when they are purchased. The Mapbook maps are gridded in
> WGS84 to
> facilitate this.
>
>
>
>
>
> best wishes,
>
>
>
> Jerry Brown
>
> mailto:bcss at bresnan.net
>
> www.bearcreeksurvey.com
>
>
>
> From: cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net
> ]
> On Behalf Of Larry Swearingen
> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:47 PM
> To: Tjamrog08
> Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>
>
>
> I have been doing that. When I do that I need to setup the gps for
> whatever
> coordinate
>
> system the map uses so I?ve been practicing for that using my BLM
> maps and
> also the
>
> Bear Creek maps. I?ve been looking up the Coordinates to a known
> Bear Creek
> WayPoint
>
> after changing the Coordinate System to that used on the BLM Maps and
> locating that point
>
> on the BLM Map. BLM map coordinate system is not the same as those
> used on
> BC Maps.
>
> However the gps will convert the way point coordinates to whatever
> you set
> it up for.
>
>
>
> I agree though. The middle of the Gila Wilderness is not the place
> to try
> and figure this out
>
> for the first time. :>) I do hope to not get so far lost that I?m
> off a
> BLM Map. That would be Lost !
>
>
>
> Larry
>
> HooDad
>
>
>
> From: Tjamrog08
>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:07 PM
>
> To: Larry Swearingen
>
> Cc: Frank Gilliland ; cdt-l at backcountry.net
>
> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>
>
>
> You got it, HooDad.
>
> Not covered in GPS manuals is being sure to align the settings on
> your GPS
> with whatever physical maps coordinate format it has along the
> margins. You
> often need to do a little decimal estimation, as the points along the
> margins are marked in only three or four places.
>
> I was using Jerry Brown's maps, and it took a bit of for me to be
> able to
> (1) establish a GPS reading where I as at and then (2) relate that
> to the
> physical map. I'd practice this before I went.
>
> It saved my ass twice when I was so far off the CDT that I was off
> of the
> narrow corridor on the map. What you do is hit Your exact "lost"
> location
> on the GPS, then orient the map magnetically, and then see just how
> far off
> and in what direction you'd have to travel ( usually bushwhack) back
> to get
> to the CDT.
>
> You must know how to do this, and you might not be calm enough to
> figure it
> out the process if you start to panic wandering around out there.
>
> Yes, practice.
>
> I would also practice at home navigating to a single waypoint.
>
>
>
> Uncle Tom
>
>
>
> .
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