[Cdt-l] Cdt-l Digest, Vol 76, Issue 39
Bob Sartini
bobsartini at gmail.com
Thu Jan 23 13:12:40 CST 2014
I was expecting/waiting for the anti-technology comment. I would use
more technology myself if I understood all the techno talk. My advice
if you don't like technology is hike with people who do.
On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Larry Swearingen
<larry.swearingen at frontier.com> wrote:
> Guess I'm not very "authentic" then.
> I just want to know where the possible water sources are.
> Guess if I was a "real" adventurer then I'd just go into it blind ?
>
> Let's see, George Mallory. You mean the dead guy on Everest whose
> body thawed out of the snow recently ?
> If you have Tenzing Norgay why not Edmund Hillary ?
> Nothing wrong with planning and gps should make that simpler.
>
> Larry HooDad
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Russell
> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 9:26 AM
> To: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] Cdt-l Digest, Vol 76, Issue 39
>
> Although I am not a Luddite, I am amazed by all the techno-talk
> concerning GPS for hiking the CDT. Should not hikers of the CDT be
> more self-reliant? Surely, a GPS is not mandatory. Bill Gates, Steve
> Jobs, and Mark Zuckerberg made significant contributions to
> technology, but my real hero's are still George Mallory, Gertrude
> Ederle, Sir Francis Chichester, and Tensing Norgay. Overcoming great
> physical and mental challenges define authentic people.
>
> Slim Gym from Maine
>
> On Jan 22, 2014, at 11:54 PM, cdt-l-request at backcountry.net wrote:
>
>> Send Cdt-l mailing list submissions to
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Follow up to Travis & GPS comments by Trew (Doug Carlson)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 21:54:40 -0700
>> From: "Doug Carlson" <doug-sue at centurylink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] Follow up to Travis & GPS comments by Trew
>> To: "'Travis Naibert'" <tnaibert at gmail.com>
>> Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
>> Message-ID: <007d01cf17f7$3a30c770$ae925650$@net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Travis makes a very good point.
>>
>>
>>
>> To clarify my previous post: Leaving Yellowstone for the Mack's
>> Inn cut
>> off route heading for the ID/MT line is not impossible to find
>> without a
>> GPS. The guy I was hiking with and I missed the connecting trail at
>> Mack's
>> Inn and walked about 3 miles north on the road out of Mack's Inn
>> before we
>> realized we were definitely missing the cut off. GPS came on and we
>> cut a
>> cross country diagonal through pine and picked up the route and
>> followed it
>> successfully. For those times you do get off trail the GPS can help
>> remove
>> some of the anxiety some of us feel when "lost." One can think of a
>> GPS
>> like taking a Xanax pill. A GPS can calm you down and get you back
>> on the
>> right path. I learned about Xanax when I was in my cancer part of
>> life.
>> Great stuff!! And being an expert in map and compass is very
>> important.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have done a lot of off trail hiking in the La Garitta Wilderness
>> and a few
>> other places with only map and compass. I do pre-date GPS by a few
>> years.
>> I am thankful for that. And I personally see no need for a GPS
>> anywhere in
>> Colorado. Never used one in the parts of WY I hiked, either. And
>> hiking
>> with only a map and compass is a great boost for one's self-
>> confidence in
>> outdoor navigation. Of course, being completely lost can almost
>> bring one
>> to tears and wishing they had stayed home. I have never been
>> that lost,
>> I am just saying.....
>>
>>
>>
>> -Trew
>>
>>
>>
>> From: cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net
>> ]
>> On Behalf Of Travis Naibert
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 8:43 PM
>> To: cdt-l at backcountry.net
>> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] Cdt-l Digest, Vol 76, Issue 37
>>
>>
>>
>> "I wouldn't try that section of the CDT without a GPS" -Trew
>>
>>
>>
>> I am sure that Trew is a great person and that I would enjoy hiking
>> with
>> him. I am also sure he didn't mean the above statement in exactly
>> the way I
>> interpreted it. But if I were someone new to this forum and I read
>> Trew's
>> statement I would probably start to get a little bit worried about
>> hiking
>> the Montana CDT section he is referring to unless i was familiar
>> with GPS.
>> Especially because he posts a lot in the forum and seems like a pretty
>> knowledgeable hiker.
>>
>>
>>
>> There has been so much discussion recently about GPS waypoints, how
>> to use
>> the GPS, how to program the GPS, etc., that I kind of feel like we
>> may be
>> giving the wrong impression of the CDT. So, with no ill-will towards
>> those
>> who want to discuss GPS stuff, I would like to point out a few things.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) People were hiking the CDT before hand-held GPS existed. The
>> trail was
>> probably even harder to follow back then. Those people did not die.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2) People still hike the CDT without GPS. I did so in 2011. Many
>> people that
>> year carried GPS but used them sparingly. I would go so far as to
>> say most
>> people use them sparingly.
>>
>>
>>
>> 3) A lot of people find enjoyment in trying to navigate with just a
>> map and
>> careful attention to the terrain. It is a skill that you get better
>> at the
>> more you practice. It is arguably the most exciting thing about the
>> CDT when
>> compared to trails that don't require any navigation, like the PCT.
>> Try it!
>>
>>
>>
>> 4) This forum is obviously for information about the CDT, and there
>> are
>> sections that are easier and sections that are harder. That is worth
>> discussing. Any pertinent information is worth discussing. But be
>> aware that
>> the way you say things could potentially scare future-hikers away
>> from what
>> could otherwise be a dream, a life-long goal, a grand adventure,
>> etc. So be
>> cautious when choosing words.
>>
>>
>>
>> When I hiked the PCT I was just finishing college and I had to start
>> in
>> southern CA in mid-may when my last semester ended, much later than
>> "normal"
>> start time. The PCT-L had so many dire warnings about lack of water
>> that I
>> seriously considered skipping the entire desert section and instead
>> just
>> starting in the sierra nevada. I started May 19th at the mexican
>> border and
>> hiked the desert. It was hot. It was miles between water sources. I
>> made it
>> just fine. It was much less scary than I thought it would be.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope all this doesn't come off as rude or angry, because that is
>> not my
>> intention. I think GPS is a powerful tool. I think Jerry Brown's
>> data for
>> the trail is going to make it more comfortable for a whole group of
>> hikers
>> who might have otherwise never considered doing this thru-hike (or any
>> sections). Despite the fact that I like a lot of solitude on the
>> trail, I
>> think it is ultimately good for the CDT if more people hike it,
>> enjoy it,
>> advocate for it, do trail maintenance on it, and ultimately help
>> protect
>> some of this country's most beautiful land. I would just like people
>> to know
>> that, with a little navigational practice, there isn't a single step
>> of the
>> CDT where you should feel required to go out and buy a piece of
>> technology
>> to carry around in your pocket and help you on your way.
>>
>>
>>
>> Good luck to the class of 2014!
>>
>>
>>
>> Suspect
>>
>>
>>
>> P.S. as a side note for those who are considering the gila versus
>> black
>> range route debate, I believe the black range got toasted pretty
>> well in the
>> last fire, whereas the middle fork of the gila seems to have been
>> left more
>> unscathed (though the mountains around it were torched). flooding
>> and downed
>> trees will obviously be an issue for a few years. That said, the
>> middle fork
>> was one of my favorite sections of the entire trail, so if that is
>> your
>> choice I doubt you'll be disappointed.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 5:51 PM, <cdt-l-request at backcountry.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Send Cdt-l mailing list submissions to
>> cdt-l at backcountry.net
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/cdt-l
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> cdt-l-request at backcountry.net
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> cdt-l-owner at backcountry.net
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Cdt-l digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: etrax 30 Question- Never Lost (Doug Carlson)
>> 2. Re: etrax 30 Question (Larry Swearingen)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:41:03 -0700
>> From: "Doug Carlson" <doug-sue at centurylink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question- Never Lost
>> To: <cdt-l at backcountry.net>
>> Message-ID: <003f01cf17c3$09733340$1c5999c0$@net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> With a GPS there is never any reason to be lost. I do not use the
>> Ley maps
>> when out on the CDT for one reason. No waypoint coordinates on
>> them. I use
>> Ley's maps to make my own route on my Delorme map program which I
>> print out
>> in whatever scale I think is best for that section of trail. Along
>> the
>> route I place precise map coordinates at enough places so if I do
>> wander
>> off, I can set my GPS for one of those coordinates and get back on
>> trail.
>> Those exact coordinates along the route also help me pinpoint my exact
>> location at different times.
>>
>>
>>
>> When I started in Columbus last year Keith mentioned that I was the
>> first
>> one he had seen starting out that didn't have Ley's maps printed
>> out. He
>> was going to show me exactly where the water cache we were placing
>> was on
>> Ley's maps which I didn't have. I simply set the waypoint for that
>> cache on
>> that route and 2 days later had no problem in locating the exact
>> bush in
>> southern NM where the water jug was hidden. In some ways I am very
>> inept
>> with the GPS but where it matters, it works for me.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have hiked over 50% of the CDT in Colorado. In Colorado I see no
>> reason
>> to use a GPS except for the altimeter, time, date, trip mileage....
>> Ok,
>> maybe there are a few reasons. But Trail Illustrated maps cover the
>> entire
>> state of Colorado very well and with the TI maps, compass, no need
>> for a GPS
>> there. Heading out of Yellowstone through Mack's Inn and that
>> route, GPS is
>> very helpful. I wouldn't try that section of the CDT without a GPS.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is what I would like to see: A GPS that is also loaded with
>> pepper
>> spray for that section of trail from around Yellowstone area up to
>> Canada.
>> It would be a perfect invention since most hikers would already have
>> their
>> GPS units out and on the ready. Of course, by the time on figured
>> out how
>> to toggle into the right setting to activate the pepper the bear would
>> probably be picking his teeth with the hikers bones.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Trew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net
>> ]
>> On Behalf Of Larry Swearingen
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:47 PM
>> To: Tjamrog08
>> Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
>> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>>
>>
>>
>> I have been doing that. When I do that I need to setup the gps for
>> whatever
>> coordinate
>>
>> system the map uses so I've been practicing for that using my BLM
>> maps and
>> also the
>>
>> Bear Creek maps. I've been looking up the Coordinates to a known
>> Bear Creek
>> WayPoint
>>
>> after changing the Coordinate System to that used on the BLM Maps and
>> locating that point
>>
>> on the BLM Map. BLM map coordinate system is not the same as those
>> used on
>> BC Maps.
>>
>> However the gps will convert the way point coordinates to whatever
>> you set
>> it up for.
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree though. The middle of the Gila Wilderness is not the place
>> to try
>> and figure this out
>>
>> for the first time. :>) I do hope to not get so far lost that I'm
>> off a
>> BLM Map. That would be Lost !
>>
>>
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> HooDad
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Tjamrog08 <mailto:tjamrog at me.com>
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:07 PM
>>
>> To: Larry Swearingen <mailto:larry.swearingen at frontier.com>
>>
>> Cc: Frank Gilliland <mailto:frankgilliland at gmail.com> ;
>> cdt-l at backcountry.net
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>>
>>
>>
>> You got it, HooDad.
>>
>> Not covered in GPS manuals is being sure to align the settings on
>> your GPS
>> with whatever physical maps coordinate format it has along the
>> margins. You
>> often need to do a little decimal estimation, as the points along the
>> margins are marked in only three or four places.
>>
>> I was using Jerry Brown's maps, and it took a bit of for me to be
>> able to
>> (1) establish a GPS reading where I as at and then (2) relate that
>> to the
>> physical map. I'd practice this before I went.
>>
>> It saved my ass twice when I was so far off the CDT that I was off
>> of the
>> narrow corridor on the map. What you do is hit Your exact "lost"
>> location
>> on the GPS, then orient the map magnetically, and then see just how
>> far off
>> and in what direction you'd have to travel ( usually bushwhack) back
>> to get
>> to the CDT.
>>
>> You must know how to do this, and you might not be calm enough to
>> figure it
>> out the process if you start to panic wandering around out there.
>>
>> Yes, practice.
>>
>> I would also practice at home navigating to a single waypoint.
>>
>>
>>
>> Uncle Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20140122/8667df43
>> /attachment-0001.html
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 19:50:49 -0500
>> From: "Larry Swearingen" <larry.swearingen at frontier.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>> To: <bcss at bresnan.net>, "'Tjamrog08'" <tjamrog at me.com>
>> Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
>> Message-ID: <8B6086691FFA4275B1D2D0ACE5B0C3D4 at LarryPC>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Hello jerry,
>> Thank you for that explanation. It was very helpful.
>>
>> Larry Hoodad Swearingen
>>
>> From: bcss at bresnan.net
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:54 PM
>> To: 'Larry Swearingen' ; 'Tjamrog08'
>> Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
>> Subject: RE: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>>
>> If by ?BLM Maps? you are referring to USGS topo maps you are
>> correct, they
>> don?t match. The topo maps are all projected in North American
>> Datum of
>> 1927 (NAD27) and the BC waypoints are in World Geodetic System of 1984
>> (WGS84). For most purposes, NAD83 (North American Datum of 1983) is
>> almost
>> identical to WGS84. (NAD 83 is the USA?s implementation of WGS84)
>> If you
>> look at the lower left corner of most of these maps it will tell you
>> the
>> difference in position between NAD83 and NAD27. The wording is
>> something
>> like ?To place on the predicted North American Datum 1983 move the
>> projection lines 4 meters north and 51 meters east as shown by the
>> dashed
>> corner ticks.?
>>
>>
>>
>> The important thing is to match the coordinates on the map you are
>> using
>> with the settings in the GPS. To make the Bear Creek waypoints
>> match the
>> NAD 27 maps in your Etrex go to ?setup?, ?position format?, ?Map
>> Datum? and
>> change the setting to NAD 27 CONUS. Set the Position Format to UTM
>> UPS.
>> Then the gps will work with the UTM grid on the older maps.
>> (Remember to
>> switch it back for the BC maps.)
>>
>>
>>
>> The reason the BC maps are in WGS84 is because it is the easier for
>> users.
>> The native language of GPS receivers is WGS84, and they come set up
>> in that
>> datum when they are purchased. The Mapbook maps are gridded in
>> WGS84 to
>> facilitate this.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> best wishes,
>>
>>
>>
>> Jerry Brown
>>
>> mailto:bcss at bresnan.net
>>
>> www.bearcreeksurvey.com
>>
>>
>>
>> From: cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net
>> ]
>> On Behalf Of Larry Swearingen
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:47 PM
>> To: Tjamrog08
>> Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
>> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>>
>>
>>
>> I have been doing that. When I do that I need to setup the gps for
>> whatever
>> coordinate
>>
>> system the map uses so I?ve been practicing for that using my BLM
>> maps and
>> also the
>>
>> Bear Creek maps. I?ve been looking up the Coordinates to a known
>> Bear Creek
>> WayPoint
>>
>> after changing the Coordinate System to that used on the BLM Maps and
>> locating that point
>>
>> on the BLM Map. BLM map coordinate system is not the same as those
>> used on
>> BC Maps.
>>
>> However the gps will convert the way point coordinates to whatever
>> you set
>> it up for.
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree though. The middle of the Gila Wilderness is not the place
>> to try
>> and figure this out
>>
>> for the first time. :>) I do hope to not get so far lost that I?m
>> off a
>> BLM Map. That would be Lost !
>>
>>
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> HooDad
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Tjamrog08
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:07 PM
>>
>> To: Larry Swearingen
>>
>> Cc: Frank Gilliland ; cdt-l at backcountry.net
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>>
>>
>>
>> You got it, HooDad.
>>
>> Not covered in GPS manuals is being sure to align the settings on
>> your GPS
>> with whatever physical maps coordinate format it has along the
>> margins. You
>> often need to do a little decimal estimation, as the points along the
>> margins are marked in only three or four places.
>>
>> I was using Jerry Brown's maps, and it took a bit of for me to be
>> able to
>> (1) establish a GPS reading where I as at and then (2) relate that
>> to the
>> physical map. I'd practice this before I went.
>>
>> It saved my ass twice when I was so far off the CDT that I was off
>> of the
>> narrow corridor on the map. What you do is hit Your exact "lost"
>> location
>> on the GPS, then orient the map magnetically, and then see just how
>> far off
>> and in what direction you'd have to travel ( usually bushwhack) back
>> to get
>> to the CDT.
>>
>> You must know how to do this, and you might not be calm enough to
>> figure it
>> out the process if you start to panic wandering around out there.
>>
>> Yes, practice.
>>
>> I would also practice at home navigating to a single waypoint.
>>
>>
>>
>> Uncle Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cdt-l mailing list
>> Cdt-l at backcountry.net
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>>
>> End of Cdt-l Digest, Vol 76, Issue 37
>> *************************************
>>
>>
>>
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>> *************************************
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