[Cdt-l] Cdt-l Digest, Vol 76, Issue 39
Andy James
longhiker.pct at gmail.com
Thu Jan 23 14:24:13 CST 2014
Maybe because Hillary used bottled oxygen. What a wus.
AJ
-----Original Message-----
From: cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
On Behalf Of Bob Sartini
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 12:13 PM
To: Larry Swearingen
Cc: CDT Emaillist; Todd Russell
Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] Cdt-l Digest, Vol 76, Issue 39
I was expecting/waiting for the anti-technology comment. I would use more
technology myself if I understood all the techno talk. My advice if you
don't like technology is hike with people who do.
On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Larry Swearingen
<larry.swearingen at frontier.com> wrote:
> Guess I'm not very "authentic" then.
> I just want to know where the possible water sources are.
> Guess if I was a "real" adventurer then I'd just go into it blind ?
>
> Let's see, George Mallory. You mean the dead guy on Everest whose
> body thawed out of the snow recently ?
> If you have Tenzing Norgay why not Edmund Hillary ?
> Nothing wrong with planning and gps should make that simpler.
>
> Larry HooDad
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Russell
> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 9:26 AM
> To: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] Cdt-l Digest, Vol 76, Issue 39
>
> Although I am not a Luddite, I am amazed by all the techno-talk
> concerning GPS for hiking the CDT. Should not hikers of the CDT be
> more self-reliant? Surely, a GPS is not mandatory. Bill Gates, Steve
> Jobs, and Mark Zuckerberg made significant contributions to
> technology, but my real hero's are still George Mallory, Gertrude
> Ederle, Sir Francis Chichester, and Tensing Norgay. Overcoming great
> physical and mental challenges define authentic people.
>
> Slim Gym from Maine
>
> On Jan 22, 2014, at 11:54 PM, cdt-l-request at backcountry.net wrote:
>
>> Send Cdt-l mailing list submissions to cdt-l at backcountry.net
>>
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>> than "Re: Contents of Cdt-l digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Follow up to Travis & GPS comments by Trew (Doug Carlson)
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 21:54:40 -0700
>> From: "Doug Carlson" <doug-sue at centurylink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] Follow up to Travis & GPS comments by Trew
>> To: "'Travis Naibert'" <tnaibert at gmail.com>
>> Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
>> Message-ID: <007d01cf17f7$3a30c770$ae925650$@net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Travis makes a very good point.
>>
>>
>>
>> To clarify my previous post: Leaving Yellowstone for the Mack's Inn
>> cut off route heading for the ID/MT line is not impossible to find
>> without a GPS. The guy I was hiking with and I missed the connecting
>> trail at Mack's Inn and walked about 3 miles north on the road out of
>> Mack's Inn before we realized we were definitely missing the cut off.
>> GPS came on and we cut a cross country diagonal through pine and
>> picked up the route and followed it successfully. For those times
>> you do get off trail the GPS can help remove some of the anxiety some
>> of us feel when "lost." One can think of a GPS like taking a Xanax
>> pill. A GPS can calm you down and get you back on the right path. I
>> learned about Xanax when I was in my cancer part of life.
>> Great stuff!! And being an expert in map and compass is very
>> important.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have done a lot of off trail hiking in the La Garitta Wilderness
>> and a few other places with only map and compass. I do pre-date GPS
>> by a few years.
>> I am thankful for that. And I personally see no need for a GPS
>> anywhere in Colorado. Never used one in the parts of WY I hiked,
>> either. And hiking with only a map and compass is a great boost for
>> one's self- confidence in
>> outdoor navigation. Of course, being completely lost can almost
>> bring one
>> to tears and wishing they had stayed home. I have never been
>> that lost,
>> I am just saying.....
>>
>>
>>
>> -Trew
>>
>>
>>
>> From: cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net
>> [mailto:cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net
>> ]
>> On Behalf Of Travis Naibert
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 8:43 PM
>> To: cdt-l at backcountry.net
>> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] Cdt-l Digest, Vol 76, Issue 37
>>
>>
>>
>> "I wouldn't try that section of the CDT without a GPS" -Trew
>>
>>
>>
>> I am sure that Trew is a great person and that I would enjoy hiking
>> with him. I am also sure he didn't mean the above statement in
>> exactly the way I interpreted it. But if I were someone new to this
>> forum and I read Trew's statement I would probably start to get a
>> little bit worried about hiking the Montana CDT section he is
>> referring to unless i was familiar with GPS.
>> Especially because he posts a lot in the forum and seems like a
>> pretty knowledgeable hiker.
>>
>>
>>
>> There has been so much discussion recently about GPS waypoints, how
>> to use the GPS, how to program the GPS, etc., that I kind of feel
>> like we may be giving the wrong impression of the CDT. So, with no
>> ill-will towards those who want to discuss GPS stuff, I would like to
>> point out a few things.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) People were hiking the CDT before hand-held GPS existed. The trail
>> was probably even harder to follow back then. Those people did not
>> die.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2) People still hike the CDT without GPS. I did so in 2011. Many
>> people that year carried GPS but used them sparingly. I would go so
>> far as to say most people use them sparingly.
>>
>>
>>
>> 3) A lot of people find enjoyment in trying to navigate with just a
>> map and careful attention to the terrain. It is a skill that you get
>> better at the more you practice. It is arguably the most exciting
>> thing about the CDT when compared to trails that don't require any
>> navigation, like the PCT.
>> Try it!
>>
>>
>>
>> 4) This forum is obviously for information about the CDT, and there
>> are sections that are easier and sections that are harder. That is
>> worth discussing. Any pertinent information is worth discussing. But
>> be aware that the way you say things could potentially scare
>> future-hikers away from what could otherwise be a dream, a life-long
>> goal, a grand adventure, etc. So be cautious when choosing words.
>>
>>
>>
>> When I hiked the PCT I was just finishing college and I had to start
>> in southern CA in mid-may when my last semester ended, much later
>> than "normal"
>> start time. The PCT-L had so many dire warnings about lack of water
>> that I seriously considered skipping the entire desert section and
>> instead just starting in the sierra nevada. I started May 19th at the
>> mexican border and hiked the desert. It was hot. It was miles between
>> water sources. I made it just fine. It was much less scary than I
>> thought it would be.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope all this doesn't come off as rude or angry, because that is
>> not my intention. I think GPS is a powerful tool. I think Jerry
>> Brown's data for the trail is going to make it more comfortable for a
>> whole group of hikers who might have otherwise never considered doing
>> this thru-hike (or any sections). Despite the fact that I like a lot
>> of solitude on the trail, I think it is ultimately good for the CDT
>> if more people hike it, enjoy it, advocate for it, do trail
>> maintenance on it, and ultimately help protect some of this country's
>> most beautiful land. I would just like people to know that, with a
>> little navigational practice, there isn't a single step of the CDT
>> where you should feel required to go out and buy a piece of
>> technology to carry around in your pocket and help you on your way.
>>
>>
>>
>> Good luck to the class of 2014!
>>
>>
>>
>> Suspect
>>
>>
>>
>> P.S. as a side note for those who are considering the gila versus
>> black range route debate, I believe the black range got toasted
>> pretty well in the last fire, whereas the middle fork of the gila
>> seems to have been left more unscathed (though the mountains around
>> it were torched). flooding and downed trees will obviously be an
>> issue for a few years. That said, the middle fork was one of my
>> favorite sections of the entire trail, so if that is your choice I
>> doubt you'll be disappointed.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 5:51 PM, <cdt-l-request at backcountry.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Send Cdt-l mailing list submissions to
>> cdt-l at backcountry.net
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/cdt-l
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> cdt-l-request at backcountry.net
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> cdt-l-owner at backcountry.net
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Cdt-l digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: etrax 30 Question- Never Lost (Doug Carlson)
>> 2. Re: etrax 30 Question (Larry Swearingen)
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:41:03 -0700
>> From: "Doug Carlson" <doug-sue at centurylink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question- Never Lost
>> To: <cdt-l at backcountry.net>
>> Message-ID: <003f01cf17c3$09733340$1c5999c0$@net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> With a GPS there is never any reason to be lost. I do not use the
>> Ley maps when out on the CDT for one reason. No waypoint coordinates
>> on them. I use Ley's maps to make my own route on my Delorme map
>> program which I print out in whatever scale I think is best for that
>> section of trail. Along the route I place precise map coordinates at
>> enough places so if I do wander off, I can set my GPS for one of
>> those coordinates and get back on trail.
>> Those exact coordinates along the route also help me pinpoint my
>> exact location at different times.
>>
>>
>>
>> When I started in Columbus last year Keith mentioned that I was the
>> first one he had seen starting out that didn't have Ley's maps
>> printed out. He was going to show me exactly where the water cache
>> we were placing was on Ley's maps which I didn't have. I simply set
>> the waypoint for that cache on that route and 2 days later had no
>> problem in locating the exact bush in southern NM where the water jug
>> was hidden. In some ways I am very inept with the GPS but where it
>> matters, it works for me.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have hiked over 50% of the CDT in Colorado. In Colorado I see no
>> reason to use a GPS except for the altimeter, time, date, trip
>> mileage....
>> Ok,
>> maybe there are a few reasons. But Trail Illustrated maps cover the
>> entire state of Colorado very well and with the TI maps, compass, no
>> need for a GPS there. Heading out of Yellowstone through Mack's Inn
>> and that route, GPS is very helpful. I wouldn't try that section of
>> the CDT without a GPS.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is what I would like to see: A GPS that is also loaded with
>> pepper spray for that section of trail from around Yellowstone area
>> up to Canada.
>> It would be a perfect invention since most hikers would already have
>> their GPS units out and on the ready. Of course, by the time on
>> figured out how to toggle into the right setting to activate the
>> pepper the bear would probably be picking his teeth with the hikers
>> bones.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Trew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net
>> [mailto:cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net
>> ]
>> On Behalf Of Larry Swearingen
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:47 PM
>> To: Tjamrog08
>> Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
>> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>>
>>
>>
>> I have been doing that. When I do that I need to setup the gps for
>> whatever coordinate
>>
>> system the map uses so I've been practicing for that using my BLM
>> maps and also the
>>
>> Bear Creek maps. I've been looking up the Coordinates to a known
>> Bear Creek WayPoint
>>
>> after changing the Coordinate System to that used on the BLM Maps and
>> locating that point
>>
>> on the BLM Map. BLM map coordinate system is not the same as those
>> used on BC Maps.
>>
>> However the gps will convert the way point coordinates to whatever
>> you set it up for.
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree though. The middle of the Gila Wilderness is not the place
>> to try and figure this out
>>
>> for the first time. :>) I do hope to not get so far lost that I'm
>> off a BLM Map. That would be Lost !
>>
>>
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> HooDad
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Tjamrog08 <mailto:tjamrog at me.com>
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:07 PM
>>
>> To: Larry Swearingen <mailto:larry.swearingen at frontier.com>
>>
>> Cc: Frank Gilliland <mailto:frankgilliland at gmail.com> ;
>> cdt-l at backcountry.net
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>>
>>
>>
>> You got it, HooDad.
>>
>> Not covered in GPS manuals is being sure to align the settings on
>> your GPS with whatever physical maps coordinate format it has along
>> the margins. You often need to do a little decimal estimation, as the
>> points along the margins are marked in only three or four places.
>>
>> I was using Jerry Brown's maps, and it took a bit of for me to be
>> able to
>> (1) establish a GPS reading where I as at and then (2) relate that to
>> the physical map. I'd practice this before I went.
>>
>> It saved my ass twice when I was so far off the CDT that I was off of
>> the narrow corridor on the map. What you do is hit Your exact "lost"
>> location
>> on the GPS, then orient the map magnetically, and then see just how
>> far off and in what direction you'd have to travel ( usually
>> bushwhack) back to get to the CDT.
>>
>> You must know how to do this, and you might not be calm enough to
>> figure it out the process if you start to panic wandering around out
>> there.
>>
>> Yes, practice.
>>
>> I would also practice at home navigating to a single waypoint.
>>
>>
>>
>> Uncle Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>> scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20140122/8
>> 667df43
>> /attachment-0001.html
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 19:50:49 -0500
>> From: "Larry Swearingen" <larry.swearingen at frontier.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>> To: <bcss at bresnan.net>, "'Tjamrog08'" <tjamrog at me.com>
>> Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
>> Message-ID: <8B6086691FFA4275B1D2D0ACE5B0C3D4 at LarryPC>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Hello jerry,
>> Thank you for that explanation. It was very helpful.
>>
>> Larry Hoodad Swearingen
>>
>> From: bcss at bresnan.net
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:54 PM
>> To: 'Larry Swearingen' ; 'Tjamrog08'
>> Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
>> Subject: RE: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>>
>> If by ?BLM Maps? you are referring to USGS topo maps you are correct,
>> they don?t match. The topo maps are all projected in North American
>> Datum of
>> 1927 (NAD27) and the BC waypoints are in World Geodetic System of
>> 1984 (WGS84). For most purposes, NAD83 (North American Datum of
>> 1983) is almost identical to WGS84. (NAD 83 is the USA?s
>> implementation of WGS84) If you look at the lower left corner of most
>> of these maps it will tell you the difference in position between
>> NAD83 and NAD27. The wording is something like ?To place on the
>> predicted North American Datum 1983 move the projection lines 4
>> meters north and 51 meters east as shown by the dashed corner ticks.?
>>
>>
>>
>> The important thing is to match the coordinates on the map you are
>> using with the settings in the GPS. To make the Bear Creek waypoints
>> match the NAD 27 maps in your Etrex go to ?setup?, ?position
>> format?, ?Map Datum? and change the setting to NAD 27 CONUS. Set the
>> Position Format to UTM UPS.
>> Then the gps will work with the UTM grid on the older maps.
>> (Remember to
>> switch it back for the BC maps.)
>>
>>
>>
>> The reason the BC maps are in WGS84 is because it is the easier for
>> users.
>> The native language of GPS receivers is WGS84, and they come set up
>> in that datum when they are purchased. The Mapbook maps are gridded
>> in
>> WGS84 to
>> facilitate this.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> best wishes,
>>
>>
>>
>> Jerry Brown
>>
>> mailto:bcss at bresnan.net
>>
>> www.bearcreeksurvey.com
>>
>>
>>
>> From: cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net
>> [mailto:cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net
>> ]
>> On Behalf Of Larry Swearingen
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:47 PM
>> To: Tjamrog08
>> Cc: cdt-l at backcountry.net
>> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>>
>>
>>
>> I have been doing that. When I do that I need to setup the gps for
>> whatever coordinate
>>
>> system the map uses so I?ve been practicing for that using my BLM
>> maps and also the
>>
>> Bear Creek maps. I?ve been looking up the Coordinates to a known
>> Bear Creek WayPoint
>>
>> after changing the Coordinate System to that used on the BLM Maps and
>> locating that point
>>
>> on the BLM Map. BLM map coordinate system is not the same as those
>> used on BC Maps.
>>
>> However the gps will convert the way point coordinates to whatever
>> you set it up for.
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree though. The middle of the Gila Wilderness is not the place
>> to try and figure this out
>>
>> for the first time. :>) I do hope to not get so far lost that I?m
>> off a BLM Map. That would be Lost !
>>
>>
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> HooDad
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Tjamrog08
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:07 PM
>>
>> To: Larry Swearingen
>>
>> Cc: Frank Gilliland ; cdt-l at backcountry.net
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] etrax 30 Question
>>
>>
>>
>> You got it, HooDad.
>>
>> Not covered in GPS manuals is being sure to align the settings on
>> your GPS with whatever physical maps coordinate format it has along
>> the margins. You often need to do a little decimal estimation, as the
>> points along the margins are marked in only three or four places.
>>
>> I was using Jerry Brown's maps, and it took a bit of for me to be
>> able to
>> (1) establish a GPS reading where I as at and then (2) relate that to
>> the physical map. I'd practice this before I went.
>>
>> It saved my ass twice when I was so far off the CDT that I was off of
>> the narrow corridor on the map. What you do is hit Your exact "lost"
>> location
>> on the GPS, then orient the map magnetically, and then see just how
>> far off and in what direction you'd have to travel ( usually
>> bushwhack) back to get to the CDT.
>>
>> You must know how to do this, and you might not be calm enough to
>> figure it out the process if you start to panic wandering around out
>> there.
>>
>> Yes, practice.
>>
>> I would also practice at home navigating to a single waypoint.
>>
>>
>>
>> Uncle Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>> scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20140122/b
>> 7fd05f0
>> /attachment.html
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cdt-l mailing list
>> Cdt-l at backcountry.net
>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/cdt-l
>>
>>
>> End of Cdt-l Digest, Vol 76, Issue 37
>> *************************************
>>
>>
>>
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>> End of Cdt-l Digest, Vol 76, Issue 39
>> *************************************
>
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