[pct-l] bear canisters Getting closer ALMOST!!!!

Tue Mar 20 19:28:45 CDT 2007

I don't believe bear canisters are required thru Sequoia/Kings Canyon for thruhikers yet. There are, however, some difficult areas. 
  1-Near Rock Creek, Crabtree Meadow and Rae Lakes bears are everywhere but there are bear boxs. You must use them. You can count on a Ranger in Rae Lakes and possibly Crabtree Meadow. 
  2-In LeConte Canyon, after the Golden Staircase down from Palisades Lakes and before the long climb to the pass, a bear is usually there. There are no bear boxes that I know of and there is a Ranger Station so improper food storage could yeild a ticket and/or lost food plus you are required to clean up the mess.
  3-The Valley where Piute Creek and trail junction with the PCT/JMT. There is a problem in this area and the lateral to Muir Trail Ranch/ Florence Lake. (Muir Trail Ranch electrifies their kitchen every night)

  From the map it appears to me that you can make it into Red's Meadow and avoid the "required" area around Duc Lake by taking the low route (that also includes a nice stop at Iva Bell Hot Springs). You could then take the tram/bus to Mammoth and pickup a canister at INYO. Mammoth Mountain Inn used to have relatively cheap backpacker rates. Someone who cares should call Inyo Ranger Station in Mammoth about this.

  Tom

montypct <montypct at gmail.com> wrote:

Filling in the Gaps
MORE SPECIFIC
NEED Canister requirements MAPs
Area in question Between LAKE VIRGINIA south of Agnew Meadows and Piute Pass (KINGS CANYON).
Or............ We have no evidence (until the print appears) that Cannisters are required in this stretch!!! And that's the results!!! Yeah!!!!!!
Thanks Monty

Topo data (and the reason for the conususion) coraborated per Aaron's input by
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/forestvisitormaps/inyo/north/14.php
It won't leave my brain cells until disproven.

Aarons Agnew to Donahue Pass Corraborated per forest service
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/inyo/recreation/wild/bearmaps/bearcanmaprushcr.doc

Just need to fill in Agnew Meadows to Piute Pass per hard data.

The biggest question left (per hard evidence) is the conflict between the written Sierra NF/Muir/Ansel Adams and not yet produced Inyo NF Administered regulations superceeding Sierra NF/Muir/Ansel Adams Wilderness between Piute Pass and Agnew Meadows. I am elated that there is a clear cut map which will answer the question and I'm dying to see it.

ALMOST THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just one more map!!!!!!!!!

Monty

I don't care what the findings are so much as the accurate elimination or corraboration of this overwhelming and conflicting data.
I'm only working on an analytical process.
It doesn't matter what the outcome is so much, by far, that the process and principles are followed.

Only written or printed evidence, so far, can fit that process. 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Tom Reynolds 
To: montypct 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] bear canisters Complex problem...More confused

NEED THIS ONE!!! Inyo has a map of where bear canisters are required. You are required to HAVE one. You are not allowed to argue that you are just hiking thru. That area extends from somewhere north of silevr pass to somewhere north of Island pass

montypct wrote:
Thank you Tom
I appreciate the help of someone who has been around a lot longer than me.
I know I have a lot of long winded questions Please help. i just don't get it!!!
I am even more confused now with these four parts of the puzzle

For the sake of preventing more confusion, I am only able to process how the detail, the details of the following are contradicted by written regulations (that I can see in writing) and the errors that might be in my Topo. Thanks to anyone who will take the time to read those details I have pasted below and help.

Below is the ONLY written documentation of regulations I have found!!
I must have too much time on my hands, but 
In writing............... again in writing,
if my Topo IS correct on where each park location is, where in writing is something with the other laws that contradict these regulations that i can view. 

1.>"You cannot get to Donahue Pass from VVR without one (legally)."
Tom 

Can all this info be both right and wrong? 
The Sierra National Forest site/Muir/Ansel site says:

Sierra National Forest- Muir and Ansel Adams Wilderness "Bear Hang" 
> Requirements:
>
> Which stretches from Kings Canyon to Donahue Pass.
>
> " 'Proper food storage is required to avoid having bears and wildlife eat
> your food. Use bear canisters, bear resistant panniers, or the 'bear hang'
> method to properly store your food and refuse. "
More specific please view:
> http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/sierra/recreation/wilderness/wildregs.shtml

2. ????????????????????????????????????????????????????
What part of Kings Canyon to Donahue pass is NOT in this jurisdiction?
(Sierras/Muir/Ansel Adams)
"Is my Topo wrong?" WAS my primary question.
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

3.
>"get a break in Yosemite if you make it over the Pass and, use the bear boxes at Tuolumne," 
Does "Get a break" mean ................ be legal or not legal per Yosemite site on are canisters required outside the site designated areas? If so, can you direct me to that info.

>"then make 15 miles or so North the next hiking day."

is this somehow trail miles vs the 7 mile from 120 (regulation per site and a ranger at Tuolumne Meadows who helped me decide to send my canister home at this point)?

4. >"You might get a break (be legal or not legal but forgiven??) from a Ranger between Woods Creek and VVR. "
Another confusing part of the puzzle. The Kings canyon to VVR is in question is included in 1. above 
But Sequoia and Kings canyon are confused by this:
http://www.nps.gov/archive/seki/snrm/wildlife/food_storage.htm
or in writing:
"Kings Canyon/Sequoia Site Regulations
Plan ahead to store your food in one of the following ways, listed in order of effectiveness. Be aware that there are areas of the park with more stringent regulations due to high levels of human-bear interactions and/ or injuries. Those areas are described in the next section.

1.. bear-resistant food storage containers.available. 
b.. bear-resistant food storage lockers. . 
c.. Suspended at least twelve feet above the ground and ten feet horizontally from a tree trunk or other vertical support using the counterbalance method. 

(EXCEPTIONS:)

SEKI-approved bear-resistant food storage containers are required at the following locations:

a.. Rae Lakes Loop through Paradise Valley to Woods Creek crossing, through the Rae Lakes Basin and the 60 Lakes Basin into the Charlotte Lake area, and south along the Pacific Crest Trail to Forester Pass. Also included are the Bubbs Creek drainage and associated trails and cross-country areas from Kearsarge Lakes and Center Basin to Cedar Grove, and all other drainages feeding Bubbs Creek east of, and including East Creek. This also extends south to the Kings-Kern Divide. 
b.. Dusy Basin which includes all camp areas from Bishop Pass to the junction with the John Muir Trail in LeConte Canyon and all cross-country areas in Dusy Basin and Palisades Basin. 
c.. Rock Creek drainage west of Cottonwood and New Army Passes, south of Crabtree Pass, south of Goyot Pass, and north-northwest of the Sequoia National Park boundary and Siberian Pass, including Soldier Lake,Miter Basin, along Rock Creek, and Siberian Outpost. All trail corridors and cross-country routes within the area are included in the restriction. "
Bear Boxes seem within easy reach in all required areas per the Sequoisa/Kings site.

So far 2+2 equals either 3 or 5 in my head and I'm going nuts.
My questions are real, not meant to do anything but find the truth and where the truth contradicts itself.

Thank everyone who has the written info
Monty

You cannot get to Donahue Pass from VVR without one (legally). 

You might get a break from a Ranger between Woods Creek and VVR. That area is not a heavy use area for weekenders and is in the National Park. You also might get a break in Yosemite if you make it over the Pass and, use the bear boxes at Tuolumne, then make 15 miles or so North the next hiking day.

montypct wrote:
I meant to send this to the list on a recent topic:
Forwarded late but I need help here.
----- Original Message ----- 

> Bear Canister Requirements:
>
> I think there's something wrong with my Topo or maybe the John Muir 
> Wilderness, the Ansel Adams Wilderness and/or the Sierra National Forest 
> from Kings Canyon to Donahue Pass are the within Inyo??? My Topo does not 
> show any of that as Inyo??????????????? Something is screwy here.
>
> Does anyone have that same problem or is my Topo right and Inyo is a few 
> miles to the northwest, at closest, to the PCT???
>
> Regulations per each area's site.
>
> Sierra National Forest- Muir and Ansel Adams Wilderness "Bear Hang" 
> Requirements
>
> Which stretches from Kings Canyon to Donahue Pass.
>
> " 'Proper food storage is required to avoid having bears and wildlife eat
> your food. Use bear canisters, bear resistant panniers, or the 'bear hang'
> method to properly store your food and refuse. "
> http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/sierra/recreation/wilderness/wildregs.shtml
>
>
> And Yosemite per their site:
> Don't camp close too Donahue Pass (above 9600 feet).
> Canisters required within seven miles of the road at Tuolumne Meadows.
> There's bear boxes near the store in the campground and North at Glen 
> Aulen.
>
> There are no requirements 7 miles north of 120. 
> http://www.nps.gov/archive/yose/wilderness/bfoodstorage.htm
>
> "This requirement does not apply to food that's being transported or 
> eaten.":
>
> And also per the Yosemite's site:
>
> Requirements for the 13 miles from Donahue pass to Tuolumne Meadows (120) 
> then north 7 miles per Yosemite's shaded map
>
> http://www.nps.gov/archive/yose/wilderness/bfoodstoragem.htm
>

> Seven miles north of Tuolumne there are no requirements.

> Another confusing question:
>
> How many miles do you travel OFF the Pacific Crest Trail before dropping 
> into the Dusy Basin. Is it normal for thru hikers to go there?
>
> Next??
>
> If all the above is correct, what wilderness areas requiring canisters do 
> not have a legal substitute of a bear box within a few miles, and how many 
> miles from legality is that?
>
> Another:
>
> Who has had a government employee lie (or see things different from actual 
> regulations) to them about these requirements?
> (I have)

>
> I'm for the use of canisters here but I think something more important is 
> missing.
>
> Warner Springs Monty
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> The answer depends on which portion of the JMT you're asking about, but
>> in general a canister will be required to travel the JMT without putting
>> in some long days. There are no exceptions or special considerations
>> for thru-hikers in terms of food storage requirements in the Sierra
>> parks and wilderness areas.
>>
>> Canisters are reqired for virtually all of the JMT within Yosemite:
>>
>> http://www.nps.gov/archive/yose/wilderness/bfoodstoragem.htm
>>
>> There are food lockers at Little Yosemite Valley, Sunrise High Sierra
>> Camp, and Tuolumne Meadows.
>>
>> However, canisters are also required along the JMT within Inyo National
>> Forest, which is from Donohue Pass to roughly 1 mile north of Silver
>> Pass (this includes the portion of Sierra NF that is administered by
>> Inyo and presumably follows the same reguations), except for the Agnew
>> Meadow/Reds Meadow area that's not in the Ansel Adams Wilderness:
>>
>> http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/inyo/recreation/wild/bear.shtml
>>
>> A strong hiker could make it from Tuolumne to Reds Meadow in a day,
>> "racing" through one of the most scenic stretches of the JMT.
>>
>> Sierra NF does not appear to require canisters anywhere, so the next
>> canister-required areas (heading south) are in Kings Canyon-Sequoia:
>>
>> http://www.nps.gov/archive/seki/snrm/wildlife/food_storage.htm
>>
>> Specifically, canisters are required in the Rae Lakes and Dusy Basin
>> areas, even for thru-hikers:
>>
>> "These regulations apply to all groups. Through hikers along the
>> Pacific Crest Trail and the John Muir Trail with a valid wilderness
>> permit must use portable, park approved, bear-proof food storage
>> containers or camp at sites with food storage lockers and use the
>> lockers. Hanging food (e.g. counterbalancing) in restricted areas is
>> prohibited until snow prevents access to food storage lockers."
>>
>> Canisters are also required in the Mt. Whitney Zone east of Trail Crest,
>> should one be able to get an overnight permit for this area:
>>
>> http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/inyo/recreation/wild/bearmaps/Whitney_bear_canis
>> ter_map_revised.jpg
>>
>> Finally, the list of approved canisters:
>>
>> http://www.sierrawildbear.gov/foodstorage/approvedcontainers.htm
>>
>> Note that some Bearvaults (the older, lighter ones, of course...) are
>> not approved for the Rae Lakes area. The Ursack Hybrid is no longer
>> conditionally approved due to several failures in '06.
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Len Roughgarden" 
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 3:23 PM
>>> Subject: [pct-l] bear canisters
>>>
>>>
>>> Last year I did the John Muir Trail and was required to use
>>> Bear Canisters.
>>> I heard theat thru hikers weren't required to use them. Is thatat so?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> pct-l at backcountry.net
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> 

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