[pct-l] FIRES IN GENERAL -- was Denatured alcohol... safest of the unsafe?

Thu Mar 22 12:30:33 CDT 2007

PLEASE NOTE:  THIS THREAD IS NOT JUST RELATED TO SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA.  IT IS RELATED TO THE ENTIRE PCT.  FIRES IN NO. CAL AND THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST HAVE BEEN EQUALLY DEVASTATING AND COMMON.

I have been completely stunned at the number of hikers who are building CAMPFIRES every night, regardless of where they are on the trail.  We, who have seen incredible loss of wildlife habitat, homes, and peoples lives and livelihoods, cannot believe that hikers come out here and build campfires, oblivious to the hazards.  Not only are they creating illegal fire rings, they risk more than they can ever imagine personally and financially should one tiny thing go wrong and get out of control.

Firefighting officials in our area are aware of the hiker traffic, and when a brush fire was started two years ago before the tunnel going under the 14 freeway, the Fire Marshall came to our house looking for hikers.  Thankfully, there had been none, and the source of the fire was something else.  Hikers trying to escape from fires they'd started (yes, this has happened) were searched for by authorities, and other hikers were questionned.  THEY WILL CHARGE YOU FOR THE COST OF FIGHTING ANY FIRE, AND FOR ANY LOSSES THAT MAY BE SUFFERED, EVEN IF IT'S ACCIDENTAL.  This can amount to MILLION$, literally.  This can be more than hike ending.  It can be life ending.

Now, back to the denatured alcohol thing:

In my observations, the stability of the soda can stoves using denatured alcohol is only one consideration.  The snaking, traveling manner of the denatured flame is the other dangerous aspect.  Where there is light, you cannot see this flame, which can lick out one foot routinely, in any direction.  It's uncontrollable.  Many hikers make camp, cook, and eat before it gets dark, and cannot see this flame, so become forgetful of it.

When things are really dry, it feels like the brush could spontaneously combust.  It doesn't take much -- like the spark from a lawnmower blade striking a rock -- to start brushfires.  Folks who come from more humid areas of the country tend to be unaware of the difference, and do things (like burn toilet paper) that may be okay elsewhere, but are really, really, dangerous in the West.

The dry desert winds are blowing again today, clearing out all the bit of moisture we had in the last few days.  The brush can be bone dry within hours, even though it was soggy this morning.  

The sad thing is, the people who really need to hear this message are probably not on this post.

L-Rod

-----Original Message-----
>From: Paul Mitchell <paul at bluebrain.ca>
>Sent: Mar 22, 2007 3:08 AM
>To: Edward Babao <babao.edward at gmail.com>, 'AsABat' <AsABat at 4Jeffrey.Net>, csxii at schizoaffective.org
>Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
>Subject: Re: [pct-l] Denatured alcohol... safest of the unsafe?
>
>Yeah, I'm not excited about the balancing aspect of this stove.  I don't
>like the pot stands that come with some of the other stoves I've picked up
>either.  I've been trying to think of an innovative way to provide an easier
>balance solution.  Well ... I haven't been thinking very hard.
>
>I talked to Bill (the whitebox stove maker) and he suggested that some have
>used tent stakes driven into the ground around the stove to provide some
>extra balance.
>
>Paul
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net
>[mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net]On Behalf Of Edward Babao
>Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:48 AM
>To: paul at bluebrain.ca; 'AsABat'; csxii at schizoaffective.org
>Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
>Subject: Re: [pct-l] Denatured alcohol... safest of the unsafe?
>
>
>
>I have to chime in regarding this stove since I've been playing around with
>it a lot these last few weeks.
>
>The other day we were camping out in Horse Meadow at Mount Laguna and we
>were boiling water with a White Box alcohol stove, a Pepsi can stove and an
>MSR pocket rocket (don't know why we had three different stoves).  We were
>reluctant to even fire up our stoves because it was so dry out there and we
>were afraid we would lose control of our stoves and start a forest fire.  We
>tried our best to be careful, but the dry conditions in SoCal are scary.
>
>Anyway, regarding the White Box alcohol stove-it is a good stove indeed.
>But after being out in the field with it a few times, it can be a dangerous
>stove to use.  For one thing, one has to balance the pot on top of the stove
>just right.  Of course, a pot stand could be used.  But if the pot isn't
>balanced just right on the stove, you can knock over the stove, alcohol
>could spill all over the place, and you'd end up with one big mess on your
>hands.  I guess this would be the same for any other home made canned stove
>or any stove for that matter.
>
>Another thing about the WB alcohol stove: it takes awhile for the stove to
>get going when it is cold.  So I wrapped a wick around the stove to serve as
>a primer.  Finally, this stove burns so hot that I've actually melted a
>couple of aluminum windscreens and had to switch to a titanium windscreen.
>
>Hope that helps.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
>On Behalf Of Paul Mitchell
>Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 10:07 PM
>To: AsABat; csxii at schizoaffective.org
>Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
>Subject: Re: [pct-l] Denatured alcohol... safest of the unsafe?
>
>I very well might be talking out my ass here, but sometimes my ass says just
>the right thing at just the right time to make me feel better.
>
>The new whitebox stove is a pressurized design not requiring a pot stand.
>Once it's primed your pot sits on the stove, so there is no open flame
>moving around like a tuna/cat can stove, which can flare up in any direction
>with the wind.  The flames are coming out tiny jets and although I haven't
>field tested this one yet, it seems to me that the flames will be much more
>confined.  A ring of small jet flames that can not create large flares vs.
>the open top design which can move all over the place.
>
>It seems to me this might be a safer version of these types of stoves since
>there is much less potential for flares to shoot out in any direction from
>the stove, at least, once it's hot and your pot is on it.
>
>Just a thought though, not sure how much of a difference there actually is
>when it's in action.  Someone who's used it more extensively might have a
>better idea.
>
>Search ebay or from Gossamer Gear to find it.
>
>Cheers,
>Paul
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net
>[mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net]On Behalf Of AsABat
>Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 9:46 PM
>To: csxii at schizoaffective.org
>Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
>Subject: Re: [pct-l] Denatured alcohol...
>
>
>I've played with snuffing out an alcohol stove (in a fire pit in my back
>yard). It can be done, but isn't always easy.
>
>First, laying something on top may or may not work depending on the
>design of the stove. Some have holes that are still exposed.
>
>Covering it with an upside-down pot works eventually, after all the air
>in the pot is burned. That can take longer than you think. Still, the
>pot has to seal at the ground, which works in soft soil but not so well
>on hard uneven soil.
>
>Even if an upside-down pot worked, most hikers only have one pot - the
>one on the stove with their dinner in it. I suppose toss the dinner on
>the ground and put out the stove, but then there's the bears <grin>.
>
>Water might work, if enough water can be used without splattering the
>burning fuel into the grass.
>
>Besides the less-visible flame, alcohol stoves typically have a variable
>flame length, slow to start, then flaring high until the stove warms up,
>then settling down. OTOH, some white gas stoves that need priming can do
>the same. The difference is they can be quickly shut down if it
>threatens to be a problem.
>
>The bottom line is a clear area 10-feet MINIMUM in diameter. Clearing
>grass is not good environmentally, so a natural clearing is preferred -
>an existing fire ring, a sandy area, a large flat rock outcropping.
>
>Whatever, but be safe.
>
>AsABat
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> I don't follow that, you can always snuff out an alcohol stove.
>
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