[pct-l] Pct-l Digest, Vol 15, Issue 40

[Georgi Heitman]

On the subject of Caches,  back in 2000, Cache 22 (on the infamous Hat Creek
Rim) was still relatively new, can't remember when Amigo hiked, but it was
he and his dad who established that cache that year and then decided to try
to make it permanent.  But at that time, Will (Gray Pop, these days) was
still removing the water in the winter because the bottles freeze and burst.
Just as we clear Cache 44 out every fall. One year, really dry, like it's
been the last three, critters ate holes in several jugs and Will found ants
and yellowjackets floating in those so began putting some in a garbage can.
After 2005 and  it's ever-so-long season with NOBO flippers, true NOBOs and
lots of true SOBOs Will knew he needed help as he's a teacher and was back
in the classroom for roughly two months before hikers finally stopped
coming.  When Stan, the Mt. Man (He goes by another name that eludes me at
the moment, and I have 'way too many of those moments these days) took the
main load off Will, I think he added more garbage cans so the jugs were
pretty much all protected by those and/or ice chests.  He always leaves a
few bottles for early and late hikers.  We had several late hikers thru here
last fall and while they all said that there were several gallons left, I'll
get a hold of him and ask him to please be sure that there are a few gallons
there before Memorial Day weekend.  Hikers coming earlier than that,
thinking to do the Hat Creek Rim when it's really cool,take their chances,
not only with the weather but at both 22 and 44 H2o caches as well.  At 44,
we didn't get our in this year, they're buried under snow at the moment and
probably frozen to the ground and some at least will have exploded.  My bad,
but there seemed to be so many other things needing to be done......  Any
really early hikers can email me off list, or phone, I'm listed in several
places, and I'll see what I can do re having water at 44. There should be
enough at 22. Our FireWalker broke his ankle early Jan, needed it screwed
back in place and is still in a rather uncomfortable 'boot'.  I had a second
knee surgery almost a week ago, not as invasive as the one last May, but I'm
not up to trekking to the cache and so carrying water to it is out of the
question at the moment.  In the summer, hikers CAN count on both these
caches.  We have hikers to help us carry jugs to the one on 44, so it's
there as long as we're here.  Stan has to work harder, a steep hill to the
cache plus he doesn't have full use of one hand and walks somewhat slowly.
Hikers always help him too, when there are any there.  Cell phones work well
on the Rim, there's a receiver at the old fire lookout tower, and if one
cache or the other is getting low, we get a call and it's taken care of,
almost always that same day.  And there continues to  be a permanent water
source at the Baum Lake/Crystal Springs Fish Hatchery near Cassel.  From
there it's dry to Burney Falls, but it's no longer than about 15 miles if I
recall.  The longest dry stretch now, with the caches in place and hatchery
water source is between 22 and the hatchery.  I get different figures re
just how long that stretch is, but I know it's pretty much in the open and
very dry.  Hopefully this will help in planning for this simmering stretch
of tread.
FireFly, from The Hideaway at Old Station

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:55 PM, <pct-l-request at backcountry.net> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: water Sections A& B (AsABat)
>   2. The One - 2009 version (Len Glassner)
>   3. SoCal water (Christopher Kopp)
>   4. Canadian Entry Permit (Jim and/or Ginny Owen)
>   5. Re: water again (Scott Bryce)
>   6. Water Caches (Jim and/or Ginny Owen)
>   7. Re: Water Caches (ed faubert)
>   8. Re: Water Caches (Eric Lee)
>   9. California transit links (Amanda L Silvestri)
>  10. Re: Water Caches (AsABat)
>  11. Re: Getting off the trail at Lone Pine
>      (Diane at Santa Barbara Hikes dot com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 17:58:27 -0700
> From: "AsABat" <AsABat at 4Jeffrey.Net>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] water Sections A& B
> To: "'Claudia'" <iclaudius1 at verizon.net>,       <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <001201c9a1e4$7d165200$6401010a at PC8>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
> Not many reports of what the water looks like yet, but my guess would be
> the seasonal source will dry quickly if they aren't already dry.
>
> My opinion is to NEVER rely on caches. In spite of the wonderful water
> cache volunteers best efforts, a heat wave coupled with a large number
> of hikers can quickly deplete a cache. Some have arrived at caches out
> of water only to find the cache was wiped out the day before. I look at
> caches as a pick-me-up, a little extra water if it's there. Others,
> including some friends who do caches, will disagree, saying they try to
> keep everyone in water so they don't have to carry so much. The question
> I ask is, if you are out of water and the cache is empty, what will you
> do?
>
> There are ways to minimize water carrying in the desert. Cooking where
> there is water rather than at a dry camp helps. Sleeping under a bush in
> the day and hiking in the morning and evening hours is a big help. (I
> got used to my midday nap too quickly, and still miss them.) A big
> ventilated hat with a full brim, and loose white long sleeve shirts keep
> the sun off. Don't forget electrolytes.
>
> AsABat
> PCT Water Reports for So Cal http://pct.4jeffrey.net
>
>
> > We've hiked lots of sections of the PCT but never sections A & B
> southern
> > most.  Do we really need to carry tons of water or are the caches
> pretty
> > reliable?  Hansel and Gretel
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:23:38 -0700
> From: Len Glassner <len5742 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [pct-l] The One - 2009 version
> To: pct-l <pct-l at mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID:
>        <1862be60903101823u5b51a298rb654d2b90299386a at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I put a document with my comments on the latest version of Gossamer
> Gear's 'The One' tent here:
>
> http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfxjwfwb_8qqvh2qfr
>
> There is a link to pictures embedded in the document.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:36:31 -0700
> From: Christopher Kopp <christopher.kopp at gmail.com>
> Subject: [pct-l] SoCal water
> To: pct-l <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> Message-ID:
>        <f2f75f2c0903101836v23793503x1d77685fa8c36d3d at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> "Just another quick note about the water.  How far apart are the
> caches , it would make a difference if they were 30 miles apart or if
> they are 15 miles apart?"
>
> http://www.4jeffrey.net/pct/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:06:12 -0400
> From: Jim and/or Ginny Owen <spiriteagle99 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [pct-l] Canadian Entry Permit
> To: pct-l <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <BAY115-W396F2556E7C53B86F28762A09E0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> There was a CDT hiker a few years ago who was denied entry at his planned
> starting point in Waterton.  I'm not sure why.  I have heard that the
> Canadians will refuse entry to anyone with a DUI conviction.
>
> Ginny
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:07:38 -0600
> From: Scott Bryce <sbryce at scottbryce.com>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] water again
> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <49B71CEA.3090206 at scottbryce.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Claudia wrote:
> > Just another quick note about the water.  How far apart are the
> > caches , it would make a difference if they were 30 miles apart or if
> > they are 15 miles apart?  Just trying to get some idea?
>
>
> The caches are not evenly spaced. The caches are located near roads in
> places where they break up long waterless stretches. On average you will
> need to carry enough water to hike 12 miles from one water source to
> another, but there are a couple of stretches of over 20 miles without
> water. One of these has a cache near the mid point, but it should not be
> relied upon.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:17:12 -0400
> From: Jim and/or Ginny Owen <spiriteagle99 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [pct-l] Water Caches
> To: <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <BAY115-W52B28B7C9C4CFECA227D91A09E0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> One of the problems with known water caches is that people DO count on
> them.  They carry less water - a quart or two instead of a gallon.  Not only
> is there the risk that the cache may be empty, but also, because people are
> expecting the water, they are more likely to arrive empty.  Instead of just
> topping off with the water - drinking a bit to get by, they fill up two or
> more quarts.  That makes the caches empty out much faster.  Has anybody
> thought about putting out the water but not advertising them?  Then they are
> a treat - and not a disappointment or danger when they aren't there.
>
>
>
> When we hiked the PCT in 2000, we didn't know where the water was going to
> be.  We knew about a couple of possible caches, but because we were ahead of
> the crowd, we knew we couldn't count on them.  One that we had heard about
> on Hat Rim didn't exist that year -- at least not when we were there.
>  Fortunately, we never expected the caches to be there. Each was a surprise.
>  Yes, we had to carry more weight - but so what?  It is an expected part of
> desert hiking - and of thruhiking.  When we found a cache, we cameled up
> happily, but it was a treat, not a necessity.  I don't think that
> advertising the caches is really doing the hikers a favor.
>
>
>
> Ginny
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:19:57 -0700 (PDT)
> From: ed faubert <edfaubert at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Water Caches
> To: Jim and/or Ginny Owen <spiriteagle99 at hotmail.com>
> Cc: pct-l at mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <629808.78063.qm at web110213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
> Meadow Ed here.............
> Speaking as one of the first trail angles to 'stash' water back in '96,
> that means?for well over a decade pcters have had some water caches
> provided. I can tell you that by 08 there was 3 dozen or so caches that are
> maintained somewhere on the trail. Keep in mind this does NOT include the
> ones provided by friends or family's of individual hikers who follow a hiker
> up the trail and will stash water or have water available in cars at trail
> heads. This method adds up to water being available?at most trail heads for
> some hikers.
> ?
> No matter how one feels about the caches i can tell you they are NOT going
> to go away. We have even had to deal with immigration stealing the water as
> a deterrent for illegal. I saw 50 gallons of water throw in the garbage at
> Walker Pass by the Forest Service people when cleaning up the bathroom. i
> filled a complaint with the mans supervisor and well he did not return the
> water was told stashed water is not thrash.
> ?
> Just like SPOT, GPSs, new updated topos, guide books etc etc water caches
> are now part of the PCT experience. Yes they do create some thrash buildup
> at places but that's mainly caused by lazy hikers who leave their thrash
> behind. i am seeing lots more thrash being left behind in the Grand Canyon,
> i recently got a new air mattress and aluminum ground sheet that way, i did
> however pass up the sleeping bag also left behind. ?
> ?
> Yes we do tell folks where some of the caches are but just as many new ones
> pop up all alone the trail depending on who's driving cars. Folks are going
> out to lots of dirt roads and leaving not just water but feeding hikers too.
> Look at the latest PCTA mag to see the one held between Mojave and Walker
> Pass.
>
> --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Jim and/or Ginny Owen <spiriteagle99 at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> From: Jim and/or Ginny Owen <spiriteagle99 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [pct-l] Water Caches
> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
> Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 7:17 PM
>
>
>
> One of the problems with known water caches is that people DO count on
> them.? They carry less water - a quart or two instead of a gallon.? Not only
> is there the risk that the cache may be empty, but also, because people are
> expecting the water, they are more likely to arrive empty.? Instead of just
> topping off with the water - drinking a bit to get by, they fill up two or
> more quarts.? That makes the caches empty out much faster.? Has anybody
> thought about putting out the water but not advertising them?? Then they are
> a treat - and not a disappointment or danger when they aren't there.
>
>
>
> When we hiked the PCT in 2000, we didn't know where the water was going to
> be.? We knew about a couple of possible caches, but because we were ahead of
> the crowd, we knew we couldn't count on them.? One that we had heard about
> on Hat Rim didn't exist that year -- at least not when we were there.?
> Fortunately, we never expected the caches to be there. Each was a surprise.?
> Yes, we had to carry more weight - but so what?? It is an expected part of
> desert hiking - and of thruhiking.? When we found a cache, we cameled up
> happily, but it was a treat, not a necessity.? I don't think that
> advertising the caches is really doing the hikers a favor.
>
>
>
> Ginny
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Pct-l at backcountry.net
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:45:03 -0700
> From: "Eric Lee" <saintgimp at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Water Caches
> To: "'Jim and/or Ginny Owen'" <spiriteagle99 at hotmail.com>,
>        <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <BAY124-DS33C0D6320F9D53633F9BBBD9E0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Ginny wrote:
> >
> Has anybody thought about putting out the water but not advertising them?
> Then they are a treat - and not a disappointment or danger when they aren't
> there.
> >
>
> Water caches, like several other perennially hot topics, can raise strong
> opinions on both sides.  I agree with Ginny that in an ideal world, water
> caches would be moved around frequently and not be advertised so that no
> one
> would be able to make plans that rely on them.  That way they stay in the
> realm of "trail magic" rather than "essential utilities".
>
> But for better or worse, many of them are more or less permanent and the
> volunteers who stock them put in a lot of effort to make them as well-known
> and reliable as possible.  So to all who might want to base your safety
> around them, the only thing we can say is - please, please, please remember
> that all water caches are stocked on a best-effort basis only, and there
> are
> _no guarantees_, and plan appropriately, whatever than may mean for you.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:46:05 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Amanda L Silvestri <aslive at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: [pct-l] California transit links
> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <531313.53010.qm at web80801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Jeff
> ?
> Wow! What a great link.? Thanks-a-lot dudeman.
> ?
> Shepherd
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 21:28:57 -0700
> From: "AsABat" <AsABat at 4Jeffrey.Net>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Water Caches
> To: <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <001c01c9a201$e4adc430$6401010a at PC8>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
> There are I think 13 caches listed on the water reports in So Cal (plus
> 2 on Hat Creek Rim). All but 2 of these are well known caches that are
> almost trail legend. The other 2 appeared in so many of my emails last
> year I added them. Each year I try to contact the water cachers to see
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Eric Lee [mailto:saintgimp at hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 8:45 PM
> > To: 'Jim and/or Ginny Owen'; pct-l at backcountry.net
> > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Water Caches
> >
> > Ginny wrote:
> > >
> > Has anybody thought about putting out the water but not advertising
> them?
> > Then they are a treat - and not a disappointment or danger when they
> > aren't
> > there.
> > >
> >
> > Water caches, like several other perennially hot topics, can raise
> strong
> > opinions on both sides.  I agree with Ginny that in an ideal world,
> water
> > caches would be moved around frequently and not be advertised so that
> no
> > one
> > would be able to make plans that rely on them.  That way they stay in
> the
> > realm of "trail magic" rather than "essential utilities".
> >
> > But for better or worse, many of them are more or less permanent and
> the
> > volunteers who stock them put in a lot of effort to make them as well-
> > known
> > and reliable as possible.  So to all who might want to base your
> safety
> > around them, the only thing we can say is - please, please, please
> > remember
> > that all water caches are stocked on a best-effort basis only, and
> there
> > are
> > _no guarantees_, and plan appropriately, whatever than may mean for
> you.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pct-l mailing list
> > Pct-l at backcountry.net
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 21:59:25 -0700
> From: Diane at Santa Barbara Hikes dot com
>        <diane at santabarbarahikes.com>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Getting off the trail at Lone Pine
> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
> Message-ID:
>        <19029E5A-90E5-49D2-952A-FA6F36C9F97E at santabarbarahikes.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
>
> On Mar 10, 2009, at 5:50 PM, pct-l-request at backcountry.net wrote:
> > Just for completeness, there is a third trail to Horseshoe Meadows.
> > Mulkey
> > Pass is 1.5 miles before you get to Trail Pass. I have walked all
> > the trails
> > mentioned. Of the three to Horseshoe Meadows, Cottonwood is the
> > steepest,
> > but it is downhill. Mulkey and Trail are comparable. I agree with
> > the pros
> > and cons given with regard to Horseshoe Meadows vs. Whitney Portal.
> >
> > Pieces
>
> I took the Mulkey Pass trail. It sucks. I fell down. I got lost at
> the end of it. Basically I did not know I needed to turn at a
> junction in the gravelly area at the bottom. Trail pass is better.
>
> I got a ride to Lone Pine from the PCT from hikers I met the day
> before I needed the ride. Getting back on the trail was MUCH harder
> (and expensive.)
>
> And about the money question. Ain't telling. I don't need people
> knowing how much cash I have.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Pct-l at backcountry.net
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>
> End of Pct-l Digest, Vol 15, Issue 40
> *************************************
>