[pct-l] Fw: Re: horses

Fri Dec 16 22:11:03 CST 2011

--- On Fri, 12/16/11, Charles Williams <charlesnolie at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Charles Williams <charlesnolie at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
To: "rob gratz" <hikergratz at gmail.com>
Date: Friday, December 16, 2011, 8:10 PM

The Backcountry Horsemen of America is the only non-profit outdoor related business that I've heard of that picks up the tab for training it's members in Leave No Trace ethics.  They teach a crop of nearly a dozen horsemen each year at the organization's expense to be Master Educator's in the Leave No Trace practices.  Their only obligation is that they return to their states and teach classes (with another Master Educator) to the rank and file horsemen/packers.  The program includes special "best practices" information that pertain to just stockmen and all the regular stuff that a LNT program has.  Exempt?  I don't think so.  I know all horsemen are not up to speed on LNT, but it is a mandate from the top of the Backcountry Horsemen of America that we get there as soon as possible.  And all hikers and outdoorsmen are not knowledgable in LNT either.  You need only take a trip among the "toilet paper tulips" of the JMT to see that.

With that I will retire as my fingers are raw from defending horsemen all day!

QuincyRider

--- On Fri, 12/16/11, rob gratz <hikergratz at gmail.com> wrote:

From: rob gratz <hikergratz at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
To: chiefcowboy at verizon.net
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net, "Mike Yanasak" <amuddler2 at gmail.com>
Date: Friday, December 16, 2011, 7:52 PM

You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for
horses and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The
trail that you are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse
trail.

sorry ed your wrong. tradtional horse trails went east to west across
the ranges,not north and south.the only traditional horse trails i can
find were short segents to short lived mining operations.
here is the reality. the p.c.t. was origionaly envisioned as a hiking
trail,horseman wanted in on the action,so as a political compamise
they were allowed.
the truth is the p.c.t. could have been  constructed cheaper sooner
and on a better route unforntantly it had to be built to horse
standards.thats why nowadays we have to hike many extra
miles,ex.(fuller ridge to cabazon)or do road walks(seiad valley)

i did`nt really want to weigh in on this,but with a new crop of
horseman maybe i will get a honest answer.ive been on this list 12
years and almost every year ive posed this question to dozens of
horseman;

200 lb.hikers have to clean up after themselvesyou have to clean up
after your 50lb  dog. why do horseman  feel they don`t have to clean
up after their 800-1000lb animal .without minamizing the problem(it`s
not that bad,it`s just oats)without pointing out your good deeds(trail
work)why are horseman the only group exempt from leave no trace?

On 12/16/11, chiefcowboy at verizon.net <chiefcowboy at verizon.net> wrote:
> Well said Ed.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edward Anderson
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:15 PM
> To: Mike Yanasak ; pct-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
>
> You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for horses
> and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The trail that you
> are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse trail. Backpacking came
> later. The creation and ongoing maintenance of the trails is done by people
> (often volunteers) who need horses and mules to carry the required equipment
> and materials. Question: When did you last volunteer to help? Do you just
> hike on the PCT?  If you do, you can't help but sometimes seeing others
> working on the trail. Notice that they have horses and mules tied nearby.
> That's how the tools, equipment , materials and often also the food and
> water needed for the workers got there.
> MendoRider-Hiker
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mike Yanasak <amuddler2 at gmail.com>
> To: shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
>
> I look upon horses and mules as a pox on the trails--especially during
> hunting season.  I hike mostly in the N. Cascades of Washington.  Some
> trails have become essentially ditches at least two feet deep (check out
> the area between Reflection Lake and White Pass as well as the trail,
> although not PCT, between Holden and Lyman Lake.  I have also seen horses
> tied to bushes 15' from the edge of the lake while their owners were
> fishing).
>
> I weigh 183 lbs. (plus my pack) and I wear relatively soft-soled shoes.  My
> impact on the trail in most situations is relatively minor.  Now consider
> the average hunter:  They sit on their asses atop a horse weighing maybe
> 1,000 lbs., and they often have two other horses in tow (one to carry all
> their incredibly extensive gear, and one to haul out the carcass of a deer
> or bear(!!!) that they might bag.  Each of the horses have 4 *STEEL
> SHOD*feet (that's a lotta weight--and a lotta hard feet).  3,000 lbs.
> and 12
> feet!).  Is it maybe possible that one individual hunter might impact the
> trail...oh, maybe 20 times more than I?  During hunting season (along about
> September), most water sources are becoming somewhat scarce.  The horse
> guys can haul in huge amounts of drinking water for themselves and then are
> free to lead their stock to the tiny streams and seeps and allow them to
> stand there drinking and urinating/crapping in the same water that I will
> have to drink (check out the approved camping area at White Pass).
> I have seen the Forest Service contractors frantically getting the trails
> leading to the most popular hunting areas into shape in early September so
> as to not inconvenience the hunters, and even stacking up firewood for
> their use.  I don't know why.  When I mentioned this to a ranger, he
> suggested I should write my congressman :-)
>
> Horses are sort of like Mom and apple pie.  Inviolate, don't mess with
> them.  And while I have sometimes envied the ability of horsemen to easily
> travel such long distances in relative comfort, I don't think it's right.
>
> Perhaps a very costly permit hanging from each horses tail would discourage
> some of that overuse, while helping to pay for some of the mitigation...
>
> Nader
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 11:30 AM, shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm so happy with the holiday season and my wonderful memories of the PCT,
>> but thinking about the encounters I've had with horsemen and their effect
>> on my wilderness exeriences will always get me down.
>>
>> Perhaps the horsemen on this list can correct any mis-information I have,
>> and comments are welcome, but my general experience with horse riders has
>> been largely negative.
>>
>> First, in my home state of Washington I'd guess the majority of horsemen
>> are out there to hunt, or set up camps for the upcoming hunting season.
>> Only a few are out there in the same manner as a hiker, that is the enjoy
>> the wilderness as it is.  Horsemen, in my admittedly limited view, get out
>> in the wood and try to change it to suit their needs and/or make it more
>> like home.
>>
>> This includes building large small house-sized tarp camps, cutting down
>> live trees to make structures and firewood, hauling up iron grills to
>> place
>> over fires and leave them there, bring beer and carelessly discard them in
>> the woods.
>>
>> I've had several times were I was treated bad by horsemen.  Almost broke
>> out in a fight once.  I've gotten bad attitudes from them, and yes it feel
>> like I'm looked down upon.  Once I over heard one talk about backpackers
>> as
>> the enemy, we are what's wrong with the west, I recall him saying.  I'm
>> making a guess that it's due to the lack of freedom they have in
>> congress-designated wildernesses, where there are rules limiting group
>> size, use of mechanized machines, ect.  They seem to look at backbackers
>> has "liberals," with our desire for protection of the land and life being
>> following by rules (from using life bait like frogs, limiting the number
>> of
>> fish/game caught, or type of fish, or amound of land where trees can be
>> harvested).
>>
>> Then there are times where a trail skirts the edge or goes through a
>> meadow, and there are two or three sets of trail ruts.  If anyone knows
>> the
>> answer as to if hikers play or role I'd love to know, but it's always
>> worse
>> in areas frequented, not by hikers, but by horses.  The worst I've seen is
>> six or seven parralel ruts, creating a 15 foot wide cut in the earth like
>> a
>> three-lane jeep road, which looks horrible.  The two worse examples were
>> in
>> Yosemite's valleys (crowed with both hikers and pack trains) and the
>> central Pasayten Wilderness (remote area not heavily used by hikers but
>> used lots by horsemen).  I'm just guessing it's not the hikers making
>> those
>> (please correct me if I'm wrong here), but horses.  I know most hikers
>> (I'll admit I do it sometimes) with skirt a wet trail to keep those feet
>> dry, but why do horses do it?  I'm assuming there's a risk of a turned
>> ankle because horses can't see under the water.  If that's the case, would
>> the
>>  horse be less likely to hurt an ankle if the horse lost 150+ lbs (ie. the
>> rider got off)?
>>
>> I try to limit my frustration by saying the horsemen played a large role
>> in creating these trails, and maintaining them, but I wonder about the
>> accuracy of this sometimes.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Shon
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>
>
>
> --
> "I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."
> (anon.)
> “The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor."
> (Voltaire)
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