[pct-l] horses

Fri Dec 16 22:26:46 CST 2011

Well, that is interesting but irrelevant to my points.  ChiefCowboy accused
me of expressing my "ignorance of reality" (sic), and then went on to make
several statements, none of which had any relation to my post.  I would, if
possible, humbly request this ChiefCowboy fella to kindly dissect my post,
item by item, and show me where I erred so that I may, in the future, be
more correct (and I may even learn to appreciate horses on the trails).
Here it is, again, Cowboy.  Have at 'er, please try again:

*I look upon horses and mules as a pox on the trails--especially during
hunting season.  I hike mostly in the N. Cascades of Washington.  Some
trails have become essentially ditches at least two feet deep (check out
the area between Reflection Lake and White Pass as well as the trail,
although not PCT, between Holden and Lyman Lake.  I have also seen horses
tied to bushes 15' from the edge of the lake while their owners were
fishing).*
*
*
*I weigh 183 lbs. (plus my pack) and I wear relatively soft-soled shoes.
 My impact on the trail in most situations is relatively minor.  Now
consider the average hunter:  They sit on their asses atop a horse weighing
maybe 1,000 lbs., and they often have two other horses in tow (one to carry
all their incredibly extensive gear, and one to haul out the carcass of a
deer or bear(!!!) that they might bag.  Each of the horses have 4
STEEL SHOD feet
(that's a lotta weight--and a lotta hard feet).  3,000 lbs. and 12 feet!).
 Is it maybe possible that one individual hunter might impact the
trail...oh, maybe 20 times more than I?  During hunting season (along about
September), most water sources are becoming somewhat scarce.  The horse
guys can haul in huge amounts of drinking water for themselves and then are
free to lead their stock to the tiny streams and seeps and allow them to
stand there drinking and urinating/crapping in the same water that I will
have to drink (check out the approved camping area at White Pass).  *
*I have seen the Forest Service contractors frantically getting the trails
leading to the most popular hunting areas into shape in early September so
as to not inconvenience the hunters, and even stacking up firewood for
their use.  I don't know why.  When I mentioned this to a ranger, he
suggested I should write my congressman :-)*
*
*
*Horses are sort of like Mom and apple pie.  Inviolate, don't mess with
them.  And while I have sometimes envied the ability of horsemen to easily
travel such long distances in relative comfort, I don't think it's right.  *
*
*
*Perhaps a very costly permit hanging from each horses tail would
discourage some of that overuse, while helping to pay for some of the
mitigation...*

Thank you.
Nader

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 7:52 PM, rob gratz <hikergratz at gmail.com> wrote:

> You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for
> horses and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The
> trail that you are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse
> trail.
>
> sorry ed your wrong. tradtional horse trails went east to west across
> the ranges,not north and south.the only traditional horse trails i can
> find were short segents to short lived mining operations.
> here is the reality. the p.c.t. was origionaly envisioned as a hiking
> trail,horseman wanted in on the action,so as a political compamise
> they were allowed.
> the truth is the p.c.t. could have been  constructed cheaper sooner
> and on a better route unforntantly it had to be built to horse
> standards.thats why nowadays we have to hike many extra
> miles,ex.(fuller ridge to cabazon)or do road walks(seiad valley)
>
> i did`nt really want to weigh in on this,but with a new crop of
> horseman maybe i will get a honest answer.ive been on this list 12
> years and almost every year ive posed this question to dozens of
> horseman;
>
> 200 lb.hikers have to clean up after themselvesyou have to clean up
> after your 50lb  dog. why do horseman  feel they don`t have to clean
> up after their 800-1000lb animal .without minamizing the problem(it`s
> not that bad,it`s just oats)without pointing out your good deeds(trail
> work)why are horseman the only group exempt from leave no trace?
>
>
>
> On 12/16/11, chiefcowboy at verizon.net <chiefcowboy at verizon.net> wrote:
> > Well said Ed.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Edward Anderson
> > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:15 PM
> > To: Mike Yanasak ; pct-l at backcountry.net
> > Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
> >
> > You are obviously very ignorant of the reality, that, were it not for
> horses
> > and mules, there would not BE a PCT for you to hike on. The trail that
> you
> > are hiking on was probably, historically, a horse trail. Backpacking came
> > later. The creation and ongoing maintenance of the trails is done by
> people
> > (often volunteers) who need horses and mules to carry the required
> equipment
> > and materials. Question: When did you last volunteer to help? Do you just
> > hike on the PCT?  If you do, you can't help but sometimes seeing others
> > working on the trail. Notice that they have horses and mules tied nearby.
> > That's how the tools, equipment , materials and often also the food and
> > water needed for the workers got there.
> > MendoRider-Hiker
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Mike Yanasak <amuddler2 at gmail.com>
> > To: shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:28 PM
> > Subject: Re: [pct-l] horses
> >
> > I look upon horses and mules as a pox on the trails--especially during
> > hunting season.  I hike mostly in the N. Cascades of Washington.  Some
> > trails have become essentially ditches at least two feet deep (check out
> > the area between Reflection Lake and White Pass as well as the trail,
> > although not PCT, between Holden and Lyman Lake.  I have also seen horses
> > tied to bushes 15' from the edge of the lake while their owners were
> > fishing).
> >
> > I weigh 183 lbs. (plus my pack) and I wear relatively soft-soled shoes.
>  My
> > impact on the trail in most situations is relatively minor.  Now consider
> > the average hunter:  They sit on their asses atop a horse weighing maybe
> > 1,000 lbs., and they often have two other horses in tow (one to carry all
> > their incredibly extensive gear, and one to haul out the carcass of a
> deer
> > or bear(!!!) that they might bag.  Each of the horses have 4 *STEEL
> > SHOD*feet (that's a lotta weight--and a lotta hard feet).  3,000 lbs.
> > and 12
> > feet!).  Is it maybe possible that one individual hunter might impact the
> > trail...oh, maybe 20 times more than I?  During hunting season (along
> about
> > September), most water sources are becoming somewhat scarce.  The horse
> > guys can haul in huge amounts of drinking water for themselves and then
> are
> > free to lead their stock to the tiny streams and seeps and allow them to
> > stand there drinking and urinating/crapping in the same water that I will
> > have to drink (check out the approved camping area at White Pass).
> > I have seen the Forest Service contractors frantically getting the trails
> > leading to the most popular hunting areas into shape in early September
> so
> > as to not inconvenience the hunters, and even stacking up firewood for
> > their use.  I don't know why.  When I mentioned this to a ranger, he
> > suggested I should write my congressman :-)
> >
> > Horses are sort of like Mom and apple pie.  Inviolate, don't mess with
> > them.  And while I have sometimes envied the ability of horsemen to
> easily
> > travel such long distances in relative comfort, I don't think it's right.
> >
> > Perhaps a very costly permit hanging from each horses tail would
> discourage
> > some of that overuse, while helping to pay for some of the mitigation...
> >
> > Nader
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 11:30 AM, shon mcganty <smcganty at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm so happy with the holiday season and my wonderful memories of the
> PCT,
> >> but thinking about the encounters I've had with horsemen and their
> effect
> >> on my wilderness exeriences will always get me down.
> >>
> >> Perhaps the horsemen on this list can correct any mis-information I
> have,
> >> and comments are welcome, but my general experience with horse riders
> has
> >> been largely negative.
> >>
> >> First, in my home state of Washington I'd guess the majority of horsemen
> >> are out there to hunt, or set up camps for the upcoming hunting season.
> >> Only a few are out there in the same manner as a hiker, that is the
> enjoy
> >> the wilderness as it is.  Horsemen, in my admittedly limited view, get
> out
> >> in the wood and try to change it to suit their needs and/or make it more
> >> like home.
> >>
> >> This includes building large small house-sized tarp camps, cutting down
> >> live trees to make structures and firewood, hauling up iron grills to
> >> place
> >> over fires and leave them there, bring beer and carelessly discard them
> in
> >> the woods.
> >>
> >> I've had several times were I was treated bad by horsemen.  Almost broke
> >> out in a fight once.  I've gotten bad attitudes from them, and yes it
> feel
> >> like I'm looked down upon.  Once I over heard one talk about backpackers
> >> as
> >> the enemy, we are what's wrong with the west, I recall him saying.  I'm
> >> making a guess that it's due to the lack of freedom they have in
> >> congress-designated wildernesses, where there are rules limiting group
> >> size, use of mechanized machines, ect.  They seem to look at backbackers
> >> has "liberals," with our desire for protection of the land and life
> being
> >> following by rules (from using life bait like frogs, limiting the number
> >> of
> >> fish/game caught, or type of fish, or amound of land where trees can be
> >> harvested).
> >>
> >> Then there are times where a trail skirts the edge or goes through a
> >> meadow, and there are two or three sets of trail ruts.  If anyone knows
> >> the
> >> answer as to if hikers play or role I'd love to know, but it's always
> >> worse
> >> in areas frequented, not by hikers, but by horses.  The worst I've seen
> is
> >> six or seven parralel ruts, creating a 15 foot wide cut in the earth
> like
> >> a
> >> three-lane jeep road, which looks horrible.  The two worse examples were
> >> in
> >> Yosemite's valleys (crowed with both hikers and pack trains) and the
> >> central Pasayten Wilderness (remote area not heavily used by hikers but
> >> used lots by horsemen).  I'm just guessing it's not the hikers making
> >> those
> >> (please correct me if I'm wrong here), but horses.  I know most hikers
> >> (I'll admit I do it sometimes) with skirt a wet trail to keep those feet
> >> dry, but why do horses do it?  I'm assuming there's a risk of a turned
> >> ankle because horses can't see under the water.  If that's the case,
> would
> >> the
> >>  horse be less likely to hurt an ankle if the horse lost 150+ lbs (ie.
> the
> >> rider got off)?
> >>
> >> I try to limit my frustration by saying the horsemen played a large role
> >> in creating these trails, and maintaining them, but I wonder about the
> >> accuracy of this sometimes.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Shon
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> >
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> > (anon.)
> > “The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor."
> > (Voltaire)
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-- 
"I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."
(anon.)
“The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor."
(Voltaire)