[pct-l] RE Sad News

[Charles Doersch]

Shian, I really think you said that well, I think, quite fairly.

I agree with you. I've very much appreciated Fireweed's generous and
open-hearted contributions to this listserv. I'm old enough to remember the
bad old days, and just how devastating and relentless sexual harassment
was, back when it was the norm. Ugh. Some of my college women students like
to joke about wanting some sexual harassment -- but when I get them to open
up about what they mean, it seems to me they just mean sexual attention and
the fun & frolic of sexual banter. Sure, that wouldn't be sexual harassment
for them. And I understand that, too. They don't really realize just how
horrible and traumatic real harassment was and is. They don't get how the
trauma can be reawakened when we hear that speech -- and the pain is
something we re-live. We remember the victims, and the tragedies.

And yet, the reality for some people of a certain generation and a certain
temperament is that they just never felt in their own skin how awful it
was. Some of those folks don't get what all the fuss about racism or
homophobia is, either. I think that doesn't make them bad people, however.
Not just that, anyway. It just means they don't get it, and they won't. We
can't fix that -- or change that.

Shian and Underhousearrest both make the point of taking responsibility for
not reading what we don't want to read. Well put! Controlling other people
when we don't like what they do is old Puritanism -- a dreary American
tradition. And I agree about hating censorship -- but let's be clear about
what that word means in context. An online community of e-mail subscribers
can decide what types of posts are relevant or offensive. The administrator
of the listserv can do so, too. It's a club -- and the club can decide what
is relevant -- and what is irrelevant. That's not censorship. Censorship
involves authorities and power structures -- monopolies of access, and it
involves oppression. Clearly that's not what's happening here.

So Shian, thank you. I support your distinction that *relevance* is the
point. Let's stick to relevant content. And I agree that if the
administrator has chosen to err on the side of not intervening in
irrelevant content, we all just make the happy choice to ignore those
posts. Radar made the same point earlier -- and well: we can all set our
e-mail to screen out unwanted content.

Nevertheless, I fully support Fireweed in voicing her hurt and objection to
an online community she respects and cares for. That, too, is fair game.
Crying "foul" at offensive speech is not intolerance. It can be heroism.
And in the absence of a referee (not a censor), it can also be necessary.

Cheers,

Charles & the guys



On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Kerry Cristler <kcristler at yahoo.com> wrote:

> this listserve is great because of its freedom a nd lack of censorship.
> fireweed seems to be asking for censorship in her long rant. i dont get it.
> i quit reading reinholds posts about 3 years ago. it's more than easy, just
> dont open them!.
>                                         underhousearrest
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Shian Sung <shian.sung at gmail.com>
> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
> Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 2:59 PM
> Subject: [pct-l]  RE Sad News
>
> This listserv has jumped the shark, right? I just read a post from a poster
> complaining that she wants to be sexually harassed but thanks to people
> like Fireweed, that just doesn't happen anymore.
>
> Having met Fireweed and knowing her background and character, all I can say
> is that any woman (and hiker) should be honored to have her representing
> them. Her independence, love of the outdoors and generous spirit are all in
> full display on the trail and she is one of the best posters on here who
> provides actual information and was a huge contributor to the water report
> the last few years. It must just be coincidence that you use the phrase "if
> you don't like the heat", since Fireweed was among the first generation of
> women hotshots, a fire management specialist in Yosemite and Alaska, in a
> primarily male-dominated profession. I'd say that she can handle any heat
> that any poster here would be able to throw at her.
>
> I've met Reinhold and enjoyed his company and conversation (at the Mexican
> border when Scott Williamson finished his speed record this year). I
> admired his accomplishments on the JMT and setting the speed record - it
> was one of the major events that got me interested in long distance speed
> records in the first place. That being said, I mostly skip his posts here
> because they don't add very much to PCT-related discussions at best, and at
> worst contain pseudo-political nonsense or posts that remind me of that
> creepy uncle who tries to constantly cop a feel on your girlfriend at
> family gatherings.
>
> I'm not a fan of censorship but I am a fan of relevant content. Since Brick
> doesn't care (as is his right as the owner and admin of PCT-L), if you want
> to keep reading, you can ignore whoever you want. Fireweed's right (and
> certainly someone who posts relevant and helpful content about the PCT,
> which you know, this list is about) is to post her opinion, which she did.
> I'd recommend to Linsey that if she doesn't like it she can add Fireweed to
> a blacklist, just as Fireweed should add Reinhold to a blacklist.
>
> -Shian, faithful PCT-L lurker, who is against censorship but nevertheless
> prefers to get his old man right-wing misogyny veiled as a love for the
> outdoors somewhere other than the PCT-L
>
> linsey <mowoggirl at yahoo.com > wrote:
> > Get over it Fireweed.  If you don't like the heat, stay out of the
> kitchen.  Nothing R. Metzger ever posted
> > is as mean as what you just wrote.  Nobody is making read these posts.
> Thanks to whiners like you,
> > girls like me who want it can't get any sexual harassment anymore.
> Realize that not everyone shares your opinion.
> > Sincerely, Lollygag--a hiker chick who is against all censorship.
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