[pct-l] Pct-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 10

[ned at mountaineducation.org]

Very good questions, Alan!

There is a huge difference between winter powder snow and spring 
consolidated snow. PCT thru hikers will be on the harder, consolidated 
stuff.

It doesn't matter whether you're on two feet or twenty feet of snow, the 
skills you need to know when walking on it in the spring are the same. When 
the snow is hard, usually in the morning after the night's freeze, crampons 
provide traction and a more secure balance to your footfalls. This brings 
peace of mind when you're out there sliding around with each step 
(conditions dependant). In the afternoons, the snow surface softens, you can 
kick better footholds to secure your balance, and the greatest concern in 
post-holing rather than slipping, but put yourself on a steep traverse with 
soft-soled shoes and microspikes that roll off the shoe and slipping is the 
main fear.

Get out there this winter and test yourself, see what it takes, and learn to 
plan for the differences.


"Just remember, Be Careful out there!"

Ned Tibbits, Director
Mountain Education
South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
    P: 888-996-8333
    F: 530-541-1456
    C: 530-721-1551
    http://www.mountaineducation.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "alantcarpenter" <alantcarpenter at comcast.net>
To: <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Pct-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 10


> Re: Early start
>
> Ned says "Of course, carry crampons..." From what I have been able to 
> learn
> from trail journals and books, very few PCT through hikers have used
> crampons.  Am I missing something?  Is my sample of PCT through hikers
> defective?  Have PCT through hikers in the Sierras been reckless in not
> having crampons in most years?  Has snow in the Sierras in June been much
> deeper than the long-term average over the past few years, thus motivating
> the carry crampons advice?  Is the current carry crampons advice partly a
> result of the availability of light-weight, 10-point crampons, such as the
> Katoola KTS, that did not exist before? - Alan Carpenter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
> On Behalf Of pct-l-request at backcountry.net
> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 11:00 AM
> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Pct-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 10
>
> Send Pct-L mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Pct-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 8 (Meridith Rosendahl)
>   2. Re: Early start (Brick Robbins)
>   3. Re: Section hiking in April (Sir Mixalot)
>   4. My Apologies RE: Need Gear (mark utzman)
>   5. Re: PCT Snow vs Winter Mountaineering
>      (Diane Soini of Santa Barbara Hikes)
>   6. Re: Early start (Diane Soini of Santa Barbara Hikes)
>   7. Re: Early start, snow reality taught (ned at mountaineducation.org)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 10:07:20 -0800
> From: Meridith Rosendahl <meridith.rosendahl at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Pct-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 8
> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
> Cc: mark utzman <blackbelthiker at gmail.com>
> Message-ID:
> <CAEJJFnq=EexaT5sc_gDtFCzOZemO+tgcdK1RY_8VN3TLojRJLg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> This is Skeeter (the dog) and Tails, the hiker. ?Skeeter made it to
> the half way point where the photo was taken, through desert (although
> it wasn't a hot year) and through 500 miles of snow. ?Tails said that
> Skeeter was probably the only hiker who missed the snow.
> http://tinyurl.com/88do6j2
>
> This is Nean, aka Let it Be, with Delta, the dog. ?Let It Be has thru
> hiked all the major trails, if my memory serves me, and Delta had also
> hiked half of the PCT in 2011 thus far.
> http://tinyurl.com/6sz8rcd
>
> Both hikers would probably tell you what other hikers here have said,
> that the dog comes first. ?Both dogs seemed happy and in very good
> condition.
>
> What other hikers with dogs have said about hiking at the dog's pace
> and putting the pooch first is most important to the success of your
> and your dog's hike.
>
> Piper's Mom
>
>
> I am doing a thru hike in 2012. Has anyone done a thru hike with their
> dog???......... I love this
> dog and I really want to do this hike. Thanks, ? Mark
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 13:58:34 -0800
> From: Brick Robbins <brick at brickrobbins.com>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Early start
> To: sandy boyd <sandylwes at yahoo.com>
> Cc: pct <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> Message-ID:
> <CALV1NzkDrMF585X91HWADAbPKGH81kaqNsM9w1RH9f8hx0YE0Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 9:25 PM, sandy boyd <sandylwes at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Hey Gang-Im planning on starting my section hike from? Campo March
> 30th,2012- I have 30 days of leave of absence granted, hope I can use it 
> to
> make 400-500 miles hiking north. Does anyone have any thoughts on this??
> ....I have 1300 miles "under my pack", hoping to add a few more!!!!!
>
> San Jacinto can be pretty tough that time of year,  make sure you
> bring an ice axe, and depending on the snow condition, maybe Boots.
>
> Also a GPS can be really handy once north of Red Taquitz.
>
> Good luck
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 14:43:13 -0800
> From: Sir Mixalot <atetuna at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Section hiking in April
> To: Kelsey Evans <kelsey.evans at gmail.com>
> Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
> Message-ID:
> <CAKhNvBX-kSErf5oNw1kTsfUigKViMgv0ugHrxwho3j8uLjYFcg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Starting at the border?  It's too early to know, but it's easy to go 
> around
> the snow if you don't want to hike in it.
>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:23 PM, Kelsey Evans <kelsey.evans at gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi everybody,
>>
>> My husband and I have been planning on thru hiking the trail in 2012 for 
>> a
>> few years now, BUT it just so happens that his band has their new album
>> coming out soon and he needs to be around for touring - so he can't take 
>> 5
>> months off.  Super bummer.  Anyway, we have compromised and found a way 
>> to
>> hike a month of the trail in April, a month in September, and then finish
>> the trail next summer.  I am getting nervous about section hiking the
> first
>> part of the trail that early.  Are we going to encounter lots of snow? I
> am
>> wondering if we should try to change that section to a little bit later?
>> Any input you have is very appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks a lot!
>> _______________________________________________
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>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
>> Reproduction is is prohibited without express permission.
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 16:54:05 -0800
> From: mark utzman <blackbelthiker at gmail.com>
> Subject: [pct-l] My Apologies RE: Need Gear
> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
> Message-ID:
> <CAJ9hrMXnxThmgGUMWe-Lj6SfwNsVXOW+Um9YNSqMiiFd1wTwbg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hey everybody,  you all have been wonderful in your replies and advice  to
> some of my questions and concerns....I wish I would have known about the
> pct-l years ago.....the comaradre and enthusiasm about the trail from some
> of you is awesome.....and inspiring......Thank You All....but my last post
> concerning needing gear for a thru-hike has met with some
> negativity.....all but one of the responses to my post about needing gear
> so far has been negative and critical.....a spirit of indifference and a
> "Shame on you for asking...do it yourself !" tone....so.....my
> apologies....I didn't mean to offend anyone....I'm sorry for asking....I
> just needed some help, that's all......Mark
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 18:24:35 -0800
> From: Diane Soini of Santa Barbara Hikes <diane at santabarbarahikes.com>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] PCT Snow vs Winter Mountaineering
> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
> Message-ID:
> <D20B4DCB-E778-43F1-8EAA-711487C6826B at santabarbarahikes.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> I don't have a lot of winter or snow experience but you are
> absolutely right about all those steep side slopes. That's
> practically all the PCT is. It took me until somewhere around Glenn
> Pass to have my V8 moment: Duh! This is a "Crest Trail." That's why
> it's always up so high.
>
> I had a fantasy much of the way through So Cal anyway that I would
> design the Pacific Appropriate Trail where the trail would go through
> canyons so there was always plenty of fresh water and stay in the
> trees in the Sierras so you could enjoy the wildflowers and pretty
> meadows.
>
> Diane
>
> On Dec 9, 2011, at 10:00 AM, pct-l-request at backcountry.net wrote:
>
>> I feel at home in the mountains in winter with crampons/ice axe/
>> snowshoes.
>> I feel at home on the PCT in the summer when I've been in 50% snow
>> situations.
>> In the winter, not on the PCT, I'm usually going up or coming down.
>> What makes me nervous is when I'm on a steep side slope.
>> The PCT seems to have tons of steep side slope.
>> So even for a person who feels comfortable with snow, I would still
>> be worried, if it was myself. Of course snow conditions vary so
>> widely over the course
>> of hours that it's hard to imagine saying anything definitive.
>>
>> Can someone else give me their opinion. I'm kind of ignorant on the
>> situation.
>>
>> Comfy
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 18:27:31 -0800
> From: Diane Soini of Santa Barbara Hikes <diane at santabarbarahikes.com>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Early start
> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
> Message-ID:
> <7D94931E-B042-4957-86E7-340759B8BD8A at santabarbarahikes.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> All I can say is enjoy yourself and stay safe in the San Jacintos.
> Have a great trip! It'll be beautiful. I'm envious.
>
> On Dec 9, 2011, at 10:00 AM, pct-l-request at backcountry.net wrote:
>
>> Hey Gang-Im planning on starting my section hike from? Campo March
>> 30th,2012- I have 30 days of leave of absence granted, hope I can
>> use it to make 400-500 miles hiking north. Does anyone have any
>> thoughts on this?? ....I have 1300 miles "under my pack", hoping to
>> add a few more!!!!!
>> Sandy
>> AKA train robber
>> AKA Kahtoola
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 08:51:48 -0800
> From: <ned at mountaineducation.org>
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Early start, snow reality taught
> To: "Jackie McDonnell" <yogihikes at gmail.com>, "Robert Shuman"
> <robertbeanie at hotmail.com>
> Cc: johnmuirtrail at yahoogroups.com, pct-l at backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <6F3B8DEE5DD34E30B2A5BAC3685E0D10 at PacificCrestPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> In essence, we at Mountain Education don't disagree with Jackie at all,
> especially if you want to minimize contact with snow. If that is the case,
> start with the crowd after a "normal" winter, "late" after a heavy winter,
> and "early" can be done after a light winter. Don't, though, let fear of 
> the
>
> unknown stop you from enjoying one of the most beautiful under-snow areas 
> of
>
> the whole PCT! Just know what you're going into and be prepared for it.
>
> Since 1982, we have usually logged about 70 days/nights on-snow in the
> sierra each year teaching how to get around safely. The conditions sure
> aren't like walking a dry, prepared trail that
> goes-where-you-want-so-you-don't-have-to-look-up. You have to be aware of
> your surroundings and your senses need to be awake when snow-hiking, but
> that is why we are in the mountains, anyway, to soak it all up!
>
> Jackie accurately laid out what the conditions are like between the border
> and Kennedy Meadows during the "early" start months of March and early
> April. Expect consolidated snow (hard, compact morning surfaces that can 
> be
> slippery and icy turning to a soft, post-holing type snowpack later in the
> day) wherever the trail is above snowline for the mountains you're in
> (Lagunas, Jacinto, San Bernardinos, etc). You can still receive new snow
> during those months (as we did the last two years), so plan for fresh 
> stuff
> landing on your tent.
>
> If you have the training and experience dealing with these conditions,
> which, as Jackie said most thru hikers do not, an "early" start is not
> dangerous (from the trained and experienced perspective). If you want more
> time on-trail, leave early and prepared with the requisite experience to
> deal with what you'll find. You may have to go around certain nasty and
> steep sections of trail (as Jackie pointed out one such is along the 
> Desert
> Divide south of San Jacinto) by gaining the ridge above and following it
> cross-country on snow (as many did this past hiking season), but that is
> easy. Of course, carry crampons (not the climbing kind) for traction
> control, good, fat, strong, 2-section, cam-locked hiking poles with larger
> snow baskets (we highly advocate the constant use of the BD Whippet pole 
> in
> one hand and a regular pole (like the BD Traverse pole) in the other, and
> know what you're doing. It is not a walk in the park, but a little skills
> training and mountain awareness for the summer hiker makes all the
> difference for a fun and safe snow-hike.
>
> So, you'll need to realize the conditions that can be present near both
> borders early and late in the thru hiking season, make a personal decision
> whether you want to accept those prospects, then make sure you have the
> training and experience to deal with them safely before going ahead with
> your plans to start as desired.
>
> How about a little Snow Reality explained:
>    - Typical spring snow, when the snow pack has begun settling during
> longer hours of sunlight and warmer ambient temperatures, can be crusty or
> hard on the surface in the morning, consolidated throughout the pack (so 
> it
> holds together well because it is melting and sticking together--better 
> than
>
> with fresh, airy snow in the mix), minimally prone to avalanche, melts
> during the morning, then you start postholing for the rest of the day 
> until
> you reach "dry" ground and trail.
>    - The Snowline in early May, when Mtn. Ed. runs its Snow Advanced 
> Course
>
> out of Kennedy Meadows over Forester Pass, can be as low as 9,500 feet 
> after
>
> a "heavy" winter. That's the elevation where the patches of snow disappear
> and you stay on top of a solid pack maybe 6 to 10 feet deep. As for SoCal,
> much of the same should be expected. When Mtn. Ed. teaches its satellite 
> SBC
>
> course up on San Jacinto right after the Kickoff (for the years when 
> enough
> thrus request the course), the snow depth has been around 3 to 5 feet deep
> at Saddle Junction with the pack hard and easy to walk on during the 
> morning
>
> hours under trees. Just South of there is the Desert Divide with its 
> issues
> I'll talk about in a moment.
>    - Route selection is wide open to you. The trail is covered. You can go
> wherever you want and there are no rocks, roots, step-ups or downs, 
> nothing.
>
> Cut your own trail! If the way ahead of you looks slippery, go around. If
> the dry trail suddenly dives under a snow bank, simply climb up it (toe-in
> or traverse), walk over the top of the bank, and look for the trail coming
> out the other side. If the snow bank is the beginning of a huge snow 
> field,
> then figure out where the trail is going and exactly where you are (map
> reading skills), and walk any line you want to get there. If the summer
> trail goes where it is now too dangerously steep, follow another route. 
> You
> do not have to stay on top of the trail all the time! Simply know all the
> time where the trail is and where you are in relation to it. You can be
> following safe routes over the snow by staying in the valley or on the 
> ridge
>
> where you won't fall off the mountain while the trail is off to the side.
> Follow creeks (there are no bushes to whack through!), valleys, ridges 
> which
>
> are the safest. Constantly watch for recognizable landmarks to make sure
> you're where you want to be, a certain shaped lake, bend in a creek, an 
> old
> avalanche path, a rock outcropping on the map, etc.. So, the Desert 
> Divide's
>
> nasty east-facing trail cuts can be simply avoided by taking a route along
> the ridge above it! Always choose routes within your means and travel
> prepared. A fall can happen to the experienced, too. Don't be hasty.
>    - Traversing over/across steep snow is the most hazardous. Microspikes
> are not God's answer to the traction solution since they can roll right 
> off
> your shoe. Ask the manufacturer, if your selection of traction device is
> designed for higher angle snow traversing. Crampons are the answer and 
> have
> kept us secure and happy for years of teaching early-season snow-hiking
> along the JMT/PCT. Always stay balanced. Never hurry until conditions
> permit/allow. Always be ready to self-arrest when you fall and start 
> sliding
>
> out of control down to the trees or rocks below. Know how to identify
> hazardous conditions ahead and when to have your Whippet or ice axe in 
> hand
> and at the ready. It's beautiful out there and incredibly rewarding, but 
> you
>
> need to be wise to remain safe. It is not a walk in the park along a
> prepared trail. You're in God's Country and you need to be aware and not
> naive or inexperienced.
>    - An early start may mean rain or snow might fall, muddy trail, some
> creeks flowing in SoCal that might not otherwise be there if you left 
> later,
>
> and firm snow to walk on where you find it. Just be prepared for them.
>    - A late ending across the 49th parallel into Canada may mean fresh and
> deep snow you may not be able to wallow through that effectively stops the
> triumphant end of your 5 or 6 month thru hike. According to the rangers in
> Manning, hike-stopping snow can begin to fall anytime after mid-September,
> so consider planning to end your dream-hike by then. Fresh snow is nothing
> like consolidated snow! Hiking into October may have been possible for 
> some
> in the past, but the start timing of each year's storms is a gamble you 
> have
>
> to accept if you end up running late in your schedule.
>
>    - How to deal with snow-hiking:
>    Once you hit the spring snow pack, it doesn't matter whether there is 2
> feet or 10 feet deep, you walk on it the same way. Navigation is by line 
> of
> sight with map and compass to provide assurance. If you're in the trees 
> and
> can't see out, a GPS unit with Halfmile's maps is essential for the
> experienced. Learn how to pick a route to where you want to go that is
> direct, manageable for your skill set, avoids nasty creek crossings (if 
> you
> go early, these may still be covered in snow or snow-bridges), rocks, and
> slippery traverses, still keeps you close to the "trail," and is safe for
> all in your group to stay together.
>    If the surface is hard, crusty, or icy, you'll need some sort of
> traction device, like the Kahtoola KTS crampons (not the Microspikes) for
> those steep ascents, descents, and traverses, especially. If your route
> turns steep, whether during a traverse or that simple ascent or descent 
> off
> a pass, you'll need some sort of self-arrest device like the Black Diamond
> Whippet pole in one hand should you fall. Your ice axe can be a useful
> "rudder" while glissading down any steep, soft and long slope. Shorter
> steep, soft descents are best handled by heel-plunging or boot-skiing.
>    Yes, the better and more definitive device is an ice axe, but, unless
> you can forecast where you'll need to take it off your pack and put it in
> hand, it most likely won't be at-the-ready, in your hand when you need it 
> to
>
> self-arrest after the fall while the Whippet will be! For those final and
> steep conditions, or anytime where you're on a hard, steep, slick crust,
> you'll need an axe in your uphill hand as an anchor should you slip and 
> for
> balance (the continual monitoring and correcting of your balance is 
> critical
>
> all the time when on snow to stay safe, so go slow and don't "push" too
> aggressively off your toes as on dry ground).
>    Cutting switchbacks up or down a climb, whether just to get over a
> house-sized hump in the snow or an entire pass, requires the talent to
> remain balanced and kick steps in the snow. For that, a firm-edged boot is
> best, but many thrus get by with their trailrunners on soft snow (how they
> do it on hard snow, I do not know).
>
> If your reason for hiking the Pacific Crest Trail is to experience a 
> hiking
> adventure that spans three seasons and changes your life, congratulations,
> you have found your opportunity! Now, go into it with your eyes open. If 
> you
>
> have any other questions about snow travel and snow-hiking, please feel 
> free
>
> to email back. We have snow skills training courses from January to 
> August,
> mainly in the Sierra along the PCT and one this year on South Sister in
> Oregon.
>
> May God bless your desires and that your dreams become your reality!
>
>
>
> "Just remember, Be Careful out there!"
>
> Ned Tibbits, Director
> Mountain Education
> South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
>    P: 888-996-8333
>    F: 530-541-1456
>    C: 530-721-1551
>    http://www.mountaineducation.org
>
>
> Confidentiality Notice: This electronic communication with its contents 
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> End of Pct-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 10
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