[pct-l] [John Muir Trail] Donahue 07/02/11

Fri Jul 8 08:43:56 CDT 2011

Good morning,

Ned and I are typically further apart in opinion than he represents.  The
good news is that apparently neither of us much cares what the other does.  As
it should be, he doesn’t try to convince me and I don’t try to convince him.

I often take issue with Ned’s posted positions because I believe List
readers deserve the perspective of all available information when making
their own personal choices.  If Ned fronts a position which is not logically
defended and/or not subsequently discussed by others having their own unique
observations, opinions, options, and alternate methods new, less-experienced
readers may assume his must be THE answer, i.e. a mutual utterance of the
community.  I believe that kind of information omission is regrettable, and
I have a similar objection to so-called FAQ lists which may also floated
without discussion or “peer review”.

Ned shouldn’t feel like the Lone Ranger as a target of my alternate views:
I’ve long provided input to many others from him up to – and specifically
including – that grand, high, omnipotent, ultralite guru Ray Jardine, with
whom I communicated repeatedly and at great length about many of his
published, but unsound or doctrinaire, positions.

I agree with Dennis Prager: "Prefer clarity to agreement."

Steel-Eye

Hiking the Pct since before it was the PCT – 1965

http://www.trailjournals.com/steel-eye

http://www.trailjournals.com/SteelEye09

On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 8:01 AM, <ned at mountaineducation.org> wrote:

> **
> It would seem that Chuck and I differ on the use of poles while crossing
> streams. We both agree, however, on some crucial points,
> - face the other side of the stream, and
> - have a pole in each hand.
>
> What remains is
> - what you do with your balance, and
> - what you do with your poles when you move.
>
> What we teach is based on our experience. Chuck's ideas, based on the
> Army's teachings, sound good and are worthy of trying out in a couple of
> days when we go back out on the trail.
>
> The premise is to be as careful with your balance as you can while moving
> across a swift current so you can get to the other side without falling.
> There are many ways of doing this as some are comfortable with one way while
> others are not. As always, hikers need to figure this out for themselves (go
> out to a stream a short distance from the car and with the assistance of a
> group of other hikers right now, during the thaw and high flow) before they
> find themselves testing out theories in a remote location along the PCT/JMT
> all by themselves.
>
>
> "Just remember, Be Careful out there!"
>
> Ned Tibbits, Director
> Mountain Education
> 1106A Ski Run Blvd
> South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
>     P: 888-996-8333
>     F: 530-541-1456
>     C: 530-721-1551
>     http://www.mountaineducation.org
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* CHUCK CHELIN <steeleye at wildblue.net>
> *To:* Hikes and Bikes <hikingis4me2 at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* ned at mountaineducation.org ; PCT-L Backcountry<pct-l at backcountry.net>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 05, 2011 6:41 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [pct-l] [John Muir Trail] Donahue 07/02/11
>
> Good evening, Hikes & Bikes,
>
> I understand what Ned means – I think – it’s just that I, and others, don’t
> believe what he describes is good practice.  In fact, our views are
> diametrically opposed relative to stick usage.
> http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=265511
>
> Perhaps Ned can more fully explain what he means, on a solid technical
> basis.  I would be interested.
>
> Steel-Eye
>
> Hiking the Pct since before it was the PCT – 1965
>
> http://www.trailjournals.com/steel-eye
>
> http://www.trailjournals.com/SteelEye09
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 4:36 PM, Hikes and Bikes <hikingis4me2 at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>> "Solo crossings should always utilize both poles downstream of your body
>> (which is facing the way your are going) for resistance against the
>> current's force to push you that way."
>>
>> Ned I'm having trouble visualizing the above .   If your body is facing
>> where you want to go, then how are both poles downstream.  Are they in the
>> same hand or behind you?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> --- On Tue, 7/5/11, ned at mountaineducation.org <ned at mountaineducation.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: ned at mountaineducation.org <ned at mountaineducation.org>
>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] [John Muir Trail] Donahue 07/02/11
>> To: johnmuirtrail at yahoogroups.com, "PCT MailingList" <
>> pct-l at backcountry.net>
>> Cc: TheTahoeRimTrail at yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Tuesday, July 5, 2011, 12:12 PM
>>
>>
>> Snow doesn't mean "you can't get through." It just means at this time of
>> year that you need to slow down and ever-mindful of your traction, balance,
>> foot placement, and route (got to look up and around once in a while!).
>>
>> The pictures in Erin's Picasa album show above-8,000 foot conditions
>> typical of right now all along the Sierra crest, and most of these were
>> taken above timberline (down in the trees either you still have lots of snow
>> or nothing, depending on elevation, aspect, and exposure). The suncups are
>> getting bigger and more slippery, too!
>>
>> Again, plan your nights below snowline if you're not prepared for
>> snow-camping and get over the passes before the afternoon post-holing
>> starts!
>>
>> Her pictures of the creek-crossings are frightening! The group crossing
>> showed everyone crossing independently of each other (not the best). When
>> you're able to cross in a group, utilize one or two others to cross with you
>> for support. Link arms-behind-backs and synchronize movements to help each
>> other get across safely. Your feet will go numb because of the cold.
>>
>> Wear foot protection to prevent injury-reactions like stumbling and loss
>> of balance should you stub your toe into a rock or step on something
>> abrasive or sharp under water. Keep in mind that the whitewater may prevent
>> you from visualizing where to place your feet while crossing, so expect to
>> "hunt-and-seek" with your feet to find good places for each foot placement.
>>
>> Solo crossings should always utilize both poles downstream of your body
>> (which is facing the way your are going) for resistance against the
>> current's force to push you that way. Some people who don't use two hiking
>> poles, find sturdy branches on the forest floor to help them in this way.
>> Within seconds of immersion into a creek surrounded by snow, your feet will
>> feel extremely cold and then go numb. Just get across safely. Although you
>> don't want to take your time focusing on balance and secure footing because
>> of this, do it. The consequences of a hasty crossing could be total
>> immersion after a fall, the loss of all your have, and the sudden
>> realization that you could loose your life and drown as the current
>> (although only two or three feet deep) pushes you around and under a log or
>> branch downstream. Plan for shorter days if you see on the map long-canyon
>> creek crossings on any given day to allow for the searching of dry and safe
>> crossings.
>>
>> This is not a normal summer out there, folks! Those of us who are out on
>> the trail bringing back trail condition reports don't have to dramatize what
>> we see to make our points, the creeks are nasty below snowline, the trail
>> may have drifts across it to the depths of one to 6 feet between 7,500 and
>> 8,000, the creek crossings in this altitude band may still have snow bridges
>> (got to search them out if in the trees), and the snow should be solid above
>> 8,000 depending on aspect, trees, wind, and exposure.
>> www.mountaineducation.org has a series of pictures showing the PCT/TRT
>> right now at these elevations and aspects. Go forewarned and prepared. Slow
>> down and expect delays, localized struggles over obstacles like creeks,
>> suncups, and blow-down, and increased appetite if you're out for more than a
>> week.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Just remember, Be Careful out there!"
>>
>> Ned Tibbits, Director
>> Mountain Education
>> 1106A Ski Run Blvd
>> South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
>>     P: 888-996-8333
>>     F: 530-541-1456
>>     C: 530-721-1551
>>     http://www.mountaineducation.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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