[pct-l] Traction--Katoola choices

ned at mountaineducation.org ned at mountaineducation.org
Sun Mar 13 19:00:14 CDT 2011 

Thanks, Jason! Good to hear. So, is it safe to say that if you down-size one 
from what you'd normally order, the things will stay on?


"Just remember, Be Careful out there!"

Ned Tibbits, Director
Mountain Education
1106A Ski Run Blvd
South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
    P: 888-996-8333
    F: 530-541-1456
    C: 530-721-1551
    http://www.mountaineducation.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jason Moores" <jmmoores1 at gmail.com>
To: <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Traction--Katoola choices


>I have used micro spikes for the past two summers and found them very
> useful, I wear size 11, so the first pair I bought were the large and they
> were too large. They didn't stay in place when on an incline, so I tried 
> the
> medium. Perfect. I had no problem with the spikes "rolling" on even the
> steepest slopes.
>
> Jackass
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 8:21 AM, <dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com> wrote:
>
>> I am still checking this out. Sounds like the KTS Alum crampons are the
>> most
>> likely option unless I get some better feedback on the micro spikes. The
>> microspikes are interesting. Looks like they would certainly be good for
>> some things.
>>
>> Ned raises concern about the microspikes rolling off on a side slope and 
>> I
>> have the same concern just by looking at how they attach with the rubber
>> band.  I also have a concern on the size of these as medium ends at mens
>> 10.5 and large starts at 10.5.  I wear a 10.5 to 11 and would be 
>> concerned
>> that the large would be on the loose end and even more likely to have a
>> "roll off" problem but I also need to be able to get them on. There is no
>> way for me to know if these will actually work unless they have been 
>> tested
>> in these mountain conditions, not just sidewalks and flat trails.
>>
>> I would be interested in feedback from anyone who has used these micro
>> spikes in the Sierra Conditions to be faced on the PCT in summer months.
>> And
>> what size is recommended for a 10.5-11.0 mens boot.
>>
>> Sorry to ask so many questions on this but I don't like to experiment 
>> with
>> life safety equipment on the trail and that is exactly what I will be 
>> doing
>> with these snow situations whether I like it or not, unless I can avoid
>> them
>> by sectioning.
>>
>> Yes I will probably asking what Ice Ax to get.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ned at mountaineducation.org [mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org]
>> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 2:03 PM
>> To: dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com; 'PCT-L'
>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Traction--Katoola choices
>>
>> The jury is still out, but we have some concerns about their Aluminum vs.
>> Steel KTS crampons. (We hope to be product testing them for ourselves 
>> this
>> Spring after the Kickoff in SoCal).
>>
>> As we see it, with a keen eye on what we know you need in the Springtime
>> Sierra for safety, these are the issues:
>>
>> - length of points: you do not need long points, so go with the Aluminum.
>>
>> - method of attachment: (this is our biggest concern) you do need good
>> strapping over the shoe for those wild, "catch-your-balance" steps (make
>> sure the darn thing doesn't come off your foot just when you need it the
>> most!).
>>
>> - fit to the width of your shoe: (the next biggest concern) Their
>> "LeafSpringR extender bar" must hold to the width of your shoe so it
>> doesn't
>>
>> slide side-to-side in the crampon. You must be able to make sudden side
>> steps without your shoe moving in the crampon.
>>
>> - front points: (real important safety issue) are not necessary for the
>> thru
>>
>> hiker and can even cause severe injury to the other foot if you aren't
>> constantly aware of where your feet are moving. The Aluminum model's 
>> front
>> points are more down than forward, so that would, again, be our choice.
>>
>> - they may ball-up more than the Microspikes since the points are longer
>> (balling-up is the adhesion of wet snow to the metal under foot creating 
>> a
>> "ball" under there and making footing much less traction difficult).
>> Depends
>>
>> on the condition of the snow.
>>
>> Be careful not to walk on rock with the aluminum model, for obvious
>> reasons.
>>
>> Now, to their Microspikes:
>>
>> We are very leery about several issues:
>>
>> - will they stay on your foot (not roll right off) when you have to catch
>> your balance with a wild sideways step? Will the "rubber band" allow the
>> rotation of the spikes clear off your foot? Maybe not, but that is the
>> moment when you need traction the most. Maybe add another strap higher on
>> the shoe, from instep on one side to the same on the other....
>>
>> - they are only good for icy/crusty conditions at the surface of the
>> snowpack and, we suspect, will not deal well with the typical Sierra
>> "soft-snow-on-the-surface, hard-frozen-layer-down-below," this is where
>> balling-up gets in the way of adherence to the crust below (late morning
>> thru afternoon issue). Sure, they are good on the sidewalk, but how do 
>> they
>> do in "Sierra Cement"?
>>
>> If you need a traction aide, because your footwear does not have the lug
>> pattern nor torsional stiffness to handle edge control well on hard-ish,
>> steep surfaces, we'd go with the KTS, aluminum model (at least you'll 
>> have
>> some edge to work with).
>>
>>
>> "Just remember, Be Careful out there!"
>>
>> Ned Tibbits, Director
>> Mountain Education
>> 1106A Ski Run Blvd
>> South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
>>    P: 888-996-8333
>>    F: 530-541-1456
>>    C: 530-721-1551
>>    http://www.mountaineducation.org
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com>
>> To: <ned at mountaineducation.org>; "'PCT-L'" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 6:21 PM
>> Subject: RE: [pct-l] Self Arrest - Instep Crampons
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > OK I looked at them both - which one is best KTS Crampons (aluminum or
>> > steel)  KTS micro spikes??? I wear a light low top boot if that 
>> > matters.
>> > Vasque Breeze.  Any opinions??  Thx
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: ned at mountaineducation.org [mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org]
>> > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 6:11 PM
>> > To: dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com; 'PCT-L'
>> > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Self Arrest - Instep Crampons
>> >
>> >>From the point of view of hiker safety, carry both self-arrest and
>> >>traction
>> >
>> > devices up from the Palms to Pines highway 74 just prior to San 
>> > Jacinto.
>> >
>> > If you feel that the snow/ice conditions are too much for your skill
>> > level,
>> > stay on the ridge and don't follow the trail. Remember, regarding snow
>> > travel, you only need to know where the trail is and not that you have 
>> > to
>> > be
>> >
>> > on top of it all the time! If by following the ridge to circumvent the
>> > dangerous snow/ice, you come back to the trail, then it all worked out
>> ok.
>> >
>> > Do not take the instep crampons if they will not have enough "purchase"
>> on
>> > the snow/ice when at an angle. This will only be a false sense of
>> security
>> > that may fail you when you need them on a steep slope. Better to have 
>> > the
>> > Katoola KTS or microspikes.
>> >
>> > The Black Diamond Whippet will serve you well as long as you know how 
>> > to
>> > use
>> >
>> > it. Just remember, it is not the tool for self-belaying straight up a
>> snow
>> > climb (like Forester-if the chute is not ice), you'll need an ice axe 
>> > for
>> > doing that, nor is it the best self-arrest tool for that ever-needed,
>> > uphill-handed, traverse anchor, since it has a basket, is not designed
>> for
>> > lateral torque (it will bend), and its shaft will not plunge deep into
>> the
>> > snow to secure you in place while crossing a steep traverse on "iffy"
>> > snow.
>> >
>> > For the snow, and you will have plenty even before you get to Kennedy
>> > Meadows, take an ice axe, some form of traction device that will not 
>> > roll
>> > off your foot on a steep traverse, good gaitors, sun screen, a
>> > wide-brimmed
>> > hat, great glasses, leg protection (for those post-holing days), and
>> > experience.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Just remember, Be Careful out there!"
>> >
>> > Ned Tibbits, Director
>> > Mountain Education
>> > 1106A Ski Run Blvd
>> > South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
>> >    P: 888-996-8333
>> >    F: 530-541-1456
>> >    C: 530-721-1551
>> >    http://www.mountaineducation.org
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: <dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com>
>> > To: "'PCT-L'" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>> > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 7:43 AM
>> > Subject: [pct-l] Self Arrest - Instep Crampons
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Are the San Jacinto and specifically Fuller Ridge, the 1st location 
>> >> that
>> >> foot traction devices and self arrest tool might be needed?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I plan to carry an old pair of Swiss 4 spike instep crampons and a 
>> >> Black
>> >> Diamond Whippet in lieu of ice axe.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> It is understood that checking weather conditions and snow pack prior 
>> >> to
>> >> entering the San Jacinto is a prerequisite.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dave
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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