[pct-l] Traction--Katoola choices

Mon Mar 14 10:43:22 CDT 2011

Ok Scott, that is good enough. No rubber micro spikes for me.  Thanks  

Dave

  _____  

From: Scott Williams [mailto:baidarker at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 8:34 AM
To: dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Traction--Katoola choices

Hey Jackass,!

I did the San Jacintos with Trax which use the same rubber webbing as
microspikes.  My right foot caught on something and the rubber broke.  I
ended up finishing Fuller ridge with only one and switched it from right to
left depending on the slope.  That was awful, and scary and is the reason I
paid the bit more and got the Katoolas before the High sierra.

On Mar 14, 2011 7:23 AM, <dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com> wrote:
> 
> The one critical failure that I did come across while researching this is,
> an occasion where the wire actually breaks through the rubber grommet.
This
> happened with two of the gear tests that I researched. This did render
them
> useless and the hiker had to take the device off of that foot. This was in
a
> snow condition where there was a bit of extra pull on the wires. 
> 
> With the exception of that failure the overall information that I found
was
> very positive.
> 
> Of course anything can break but this grommet pull out would be a concern,
> particularly if there was not a possibility of a field repair which could
be
> the case with this rubber.
> 
> The one thing that I can say about my instep crampons is that I have had
> them for 30 years. I do not use them a lot but they did save me big time
on
> icy remote trails in the Grand Canyon and have never broken on me. I have
> worn them on icy trails with long distances of rock in between so you are
> inclined to actually have them on when needed. Two piece solid steel with
> nylon straps. I know I would be better off with these then the broken
rubber
> thing in my pack. 
> 
> KTS aluminum crampons are looking pretty good.
> 
> Still shopping. - Dave

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
> On Behalf Of Jason Moores
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 6:38 AM
> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Traction--Katoola choices
> 
> I suppose that would depend on how close to the size change you are,
med/lg.
> I wouldn't want to try to get a med. over a pair of size 13 but if you
find
> your spikes slipping try the next size down. Worked for me.
> 
> Jackass
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 6:00 PM, <ned at mountaineducation.org> wrote:
> 
>> Thanks, Jason! Good to hear. So, is it safe to say that if you down-size
>> one from what you'd normally order, the things will stay on?
>>
>>
>>
>> "Just remember, Be Careful out there!"
>>
>> Ned Tibbits, Director
>> Mountain Education
>> 1106A Ski Run Blvd
>> South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
>> P: <888-996-8333>888-996-8333
>> F: <530-541-1456>530-541-1456
>> C: <530-721-1551>530-721-1551
>> http://www.mountaineducation.org
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Moores" <jmmoores1 at gmail.com>
>> To: <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>> Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 4:47 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Traction--Katoola choices
>>
>>
>> I have used micro spikes for the past two summers and found them very
>>> useful, I wear size 11, so the first pair I bought were the large and
> they
>>> were too large. They didn't stay in place when on an incline, so I tried
>>> the
>>> medium. Perfect. I had no problem with the spikes "rolling" on even the
>>> steepest slopes.
>>>
>>> Jackass
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 8:21 AM, <dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am still checking this out. Sounds like the KTS Alum crampons are the
>>>> most
>>>> likely option unless I get some better feedback on the micro spikes.
The
>>>> microspikes are interesting. Looks like they would certainly be good
for
>>>> some things.
>>>>
>>>> Ned raises concern about the microspikes rolling off on a side slope
and
>>>> I
>>>> have the same concern just by looking at how they attach with the
rubber
>>>> band. I also have a concern on the size of these as medium ends at mens
>>>> 10.5 and large starts at 10.5. I wear a 10.5 to 11 and would be
>>>> concerned
>>>> that the large would be on the loose end and even more likely to have a
>>>> "roll off" problem but I also need to be able to get them on. There is
> no
>>>> way for me to know if these will actually work unless they have been
>>>> tested
>>>> in these mountain conditions, not just sidewalks and flat trails.
>>>>
>>>> I would be interested in feedback from anyone who has used these micro
>>>> spikes in the Sierra Conditions to be faced on the PCT in summer
months.
>>>> And
>>>> what size is recommended for a 10.5-11.0 mens boot.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry to ask so many questions on this but I don't like to experiment
>>>> with
>>>> life safety equipment on the trail and that is exactly what I will be
>>>> doing
>>>> with these snow situations whether I like it or not, unless I can avoid
>>>> them
>>>> by sectioning.
>>>>
>>>> Yes I will probably asking what Ice Ax to get.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ned at mountaineducation.org [mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org]
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 2:03 PM
>>>> To: dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com; 'PCT-L'
>>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Traction--Katoola choices
>>>>
>>>> The jury is still out, but we have some concerns about their Aluminum
> vs.
>>>> Steel KTS crampons. (We hope to be product testing them for ourselves
>>>> this
>>>> Spring after the Kickoff in SoCal).
>>>>
>>>> As we see it, with a keen eye on what we know you need in the
Springtime
>>>> Sierra for safety, these are the issues:
>>>>
>>>> - length of points: you do not need long points, so go with the
> Aluminum.
>>>>
>>>> - method of attachment: (this is our biggest concern) you do need good
>>>> strapping over the shoe for those wild, "catch-your-balance" steps
(make
>>>> sure the darn thing doesn't come off your foot just when you need it
the
>>>> most!).
>>>>
>>>> - fit to the width of your shoe: (the next biggest concern) Their
>>>> "LeafSpringR extender bar" must hold to the width of your shoe so it
>>>> doesn't
>>>>
>>>> slide side-to-side in the crampon. You must be able to make sudden side
>>>> steps without your shoe moving in the crampon.
>>>>
>>>> - front points: (real important safety issue) are not necessary for the
>>>> thru
>>>>
>>>> hiker and can even cause severe injury to the other foot if you aren't
>>>> constantly aware of where your feet are moving. The Aluminum model's
>>>> front
>>>> points are more down than forward, so that would, again, be our choice.
>>>>
>>>> - they may ball-up more than the Microspikes since the points are
longer
>>>> (balling-up is the adhesion of wet snow to the metal under foot
creating
>>>> a
>>>> "ball" under there and making footing much less traction difficult).
>>>> Depends
>>>>
>>>> on the condition of the snow.
>>>>
>>>> Be careful not to walk on rock with the aluminum model, for obvious
>>>> reasons.
>>>>
>>>> Now, to their Microspikes:
>>>>
>>>> We are very leery about several issues:
>>>>
>>>> - will they stay on your foot (not roll right off) when you have to
> catch
>>>> your balance with a wild sideways step? Will the "rubber band" allow
the
>>>> rotation of the spikes clear off your foot? Maybe not, but that is the
>>>> moment when you need traction the most. Maybe add another strap higher
> on
>>>> the shoe, from instep on one side to the same on the other....
>>>>
>>>> - they are only good for icy/crusty conditions at the surface of the
>>>> snowpack and, we suspect, will not deal well with the typical Sierra
>>>> "soft-snow-on-the-surface, hard-frozen-layer-down-below," this is where
>>>> balling-up gets in the way of adherence to the crust below (late
morning
>>>> thru afternoon issue). Sure, they are good on the sidewalk, but how do
>>>> they
>>>> do in "Sierra Cement"?
>>>>
>>>> If you need a traction aide, because your footwear does not have the
lug
>>>> pattern nor torsional stiffness to handle edge control well on
hard-ish,
>>>> steep surfaces, we'd go with the KTS, aluminum model (at least you'll
>>>> have
>>>> some edge to work with).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Just remember, Be Careful out there!"
>>>>
>>>> Ned Tibbits, Director
>>>> Mountain Education
>>>> 1106A Ski Run Blvd
>>>> South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
>>>> P: <888-996-8333>888-996-8333
>>>> F: <530-541-1456>530-541-1456
>>>> C: <530-721-1551>530-721-1551
>>>> http://www.mountaineducation.org
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: <dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com>
>>>> To: <ned at mountaineducation.org>; "'PCT-L'" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 6:21 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: [pct-l] Self Arrest - Instep Crampons
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > OK I looked at them both - which one is best KTS Crampons (aluminum
or
>>>> > steel) KTS micro spikes??? I wear a light low top boot if that >
>>>> matters.
>>>> > Vasque Breeze. Any opinions?? Thx
>>>> >
>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> > From: ned at mountaineducation.org [mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org]
>>>> > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 6:11 PM
>>>> > To: dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com; 'PCT-L'
>>>> > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Self Arrest - Instep Crampons
>>>> >
>>>> >>From the point of view of hiker safety, carry both self-arrest and
>>>> >>traction
>>>> >
>>>> > devices up from the Palms to Pines highway 74 just prior to San >
>>>> Jacinto.
>>>> >
>>>> > If you feel that the snow/ice conditions are too much for your skill
>>>> > level,
>>>> > stay on the ridge and don't follow the trail. Remember, regarding
snow
>>>> > travel, you only need to know where the trail is and not that you
have
>>>> > to
>>>> > be
>>>> >
>>>> > on top of it all the time! If by following the ridge to circumvent
the
>>>> > dangerous snow/ice, you come back to the trail, then it all worked
out
>>>> ok.
>>>> >
>>>> > Do not take the instep crampons if they will not have enough
> "purchase"
>>>> on
>>>> > the snow/ice when at an angle. This will only be a false sense of
>>>> security
>>>> > that may fail you when you need them on a steep slope. Better to have
>>
>>>> the
>>>> > Katoola KTS or microspikes.
>>>> >
>>>> > The Black Diamond Whippet will serve you well as long as you know how
>>
>>>> to
>>>> > use
>>>> >
>>>> > it. Just remember, it is not the tool for self-belaying straight up a
>>>> snow
>>>> > climb (like Forester-if the chute is not ice), you'll need an ice axe
>>
>>>> for
>>>> > doing that, nor is it the best self-arrest tool for that ever-needed,
>>>> > uphill-handed, traverse anchor, since it has a basket, is not
designed
>>>> for
>>>> > lateral torque (it will bend), and its shaft will not plunge deep
into
>>>> the
>>>> > snow to secure you in place while crossing a steep traverse on "iffy"
>>>> > snow.
>>>> >
>>>> > For the snow, and you will have plenty even before you get to Kennedy
>>>> > Meadows, take an ice axe, some form of traction device that will not
>
>>>> roll
>>>> > off your foot on a steep traverse, good gaitors, sun screen, a
>>>> > wide-brimmed
>>>> > hat, great glasses, leg protection (for those post-holing days), and
>>>> > experience.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > "Just remember, Be Careful out there!"
>>>> >
>>>> > Ned Tibbits, Director
>>>> > Mountain Education
>>>> > 1106A Ski Run Blvd
>>>> > South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
>>>> > P: <888-996-8333>888-996-8333
>>>> > F: <530-541-1456>530-541-1456
>>>> > C: <530-721-1551>530-721-1551
>>>> > http://www.mountaineducation.org
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: <dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com>
>>>> > To: "'PCT-L'" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>>>> > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 7:43 AM
>>>> > Subject: [pct-l] Self Arrest - Instep Crampons
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Are the San Jacinto and specifically Fuller Ridge, the 1st location
>>>
>>>> that
>>>> >> foot traction devices and self arrest tool might be needed?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I plan to carry an old pair of Swiss 4 spike instep crampons and a
>>
>>>> Black
>>>> >> Diamond Whippet in lieu of ice axe.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It is understood that checking weather conditions and snow pack
prior
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> entering the San Jacinto is a prerequisite.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Dave
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Pct-L mailing list
>>>> >> Pct-L at backcountry.net
>>>> >> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>>> >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>> >>
>>>> >> List Archives:
>>>> >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Pct-L mailing list
>>>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
>>>> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>>
>>>> List Archives:
>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pct-L mailing list
>>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
>>> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>
>>> List Archives:
>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> 
> List Archives:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> 
> List Archives:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/