[pct-l] Mountain Bikes and Trail Damage

Tue Oct 9 12:38:01 CDT 2012

Stephen.  My experience on the PCT has been similar to yours. My concern is often especially urgent since I am usually riding a horse. Those bikers who want to go as fast as possible down hills on challenging, curvy, trails are dangerous to equestrians, to hikers, and also to themselves. Some horses might do a BIG spook resulting in injury of even death to themselves and their riders. I will never forget one incident when I was riding down hill on a narrow trail (PCT Section E) when a biker ( I did not even hear his approach) flew around a corner behind us. Primo spooked forward, fortunately. The bike rider was going too fast to stop - so he veered off the trail and crashed into rocks and brush, which stopped him. He didn't go over the steeper drop off. We were both lucky. He was pretty scratched up and hurt his knee. I informed him that he was breaking the law by riding on the PCT. He, a teenager, claimed that he did not know that he was
 breaking any law. 

MendoRider-Hiker

________________________________
 From: Stephen Clark <rowriver at gmail.com>
To: James Lott <socalbackpackers at outlook.com> 
Cc: PCTL <pct-l at backcountry.net> 
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2012 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Mountain Bikes and Trail Damage

I have yet to come across (or have them come across me) a biker on the PCT
or any trail (I do about 300 to 400 miles a year besides my PCT miles) that
stops for or is courteous to hikers... Mostly it's "On your left" as they
scream by, if I even get anything other than the sound of tires coming up
behind... I would therefor have to assume that there are more 'idiots'
among mountain bikers than those that are 'respectful.'

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 9:09 AM, James Lott <socalbackpackers at outlook.com>wrote:

> Many of the trails the I ride on also have horses on them  Contrary to
> popular belief on this site, most mountain bike riders are respectful to
> horses and hikers.   We always stop and let the horse pass or ride slow
> past the horse so they are not spooked. As with any sport or activity, you
> will always find the idiots in the group.  And those will be the people
> that are point to by the other side as the reason they should not be there
> or allowed to participate
>
>
>
> > From: timpnye at gmail.com
> > Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 18:25:48 -0700
> > To: tokencivilian at yahoo.com
> > CC: pct-l at backcountry.net
> > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Mountain Bikes and Trail Damage
> >
> > Barry,
> >
> > Cogent.
> >
> > My thought with respect to Wilderness Act solution would be a strip of
> wilderness 50 yards wide or so on all public lands which are traversed by
> the trail. This would necessarily exclude existing road crossings.
> >
> > The danger, as I see it, is that we are looking at a possible regulatory
> fiat that disregards the legislative intent of the original legislation.
> Remember that the original Congressional enactment proceeded the
> development of the mountain bike. It would seem that that fact should
> preclude any regulatory action to execute the Act that would allow such a
> device The question should not be whether or not it is a specifically
> excluded activity, rather whether it is a specifically endorsed activity
> within the ambit the legislation.
> >
> > Realistically, it is clear to me that the executive branch does not feel
> it must so defer given the fact they even feel they have the right to even
> consider such an action.
> >
> > One of the pluses that horse traffic provides is that allows those with
> many types of disabilities that cannot either hike, or bike, access to the
> trail. It allows families access. If bikes are allowed, then access to the
> trail is actually restricted in terms of the proportion of the population
> having access to the extent equestrian usage is no longer safe. Thus,
> allowing bikes may be seen as discriminatory. It must be shown, however,
> that the MTB's disregard their obligation to yield to horses and hikers.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Oct 8, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Barry Teschlog <tokencivilian at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > To those that claim MTB's don't significantly damage trails, I call
> ignorance on that statement (and I use dictionary definition of ignorance -
> lack of knowledge).
> > >
> > > I base that statement as a trail maintainer (as a volunteer WTA
> assistant crew leader and volunteer PCTA crew leader), hiker and avid
> mountain biker. I've worked on both the PCT (hiker and stock), trails at
> Tiger Mountain (just east of Seattle) where trails are open to horse, hiker
> and MTBs and on the Grand Ridge Trail (just on the other side of I-90 from
> Tiger) to name a few. I also LOVE to ride my MTB on some fun, twisty, fast
> single track (a Trek hard tail) at Duthie Mountain Bike Park (at the north
> end of the Grand Ridge Trail). I also thru hiked in 2006.
> > >
> > >
> > > My first hand observations: The trails at Duthie are maintained
> constantly by the Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance. They're also in poor
> condition due to the heavy MTB traffic. There are ruts and mud holes all
> over the place. Drainage structures are constantly destroyed as the bikers
> ride in a narrow (preferred) line, causing deep cuts in the ground that
> throw up a berm, blocking the drainage's. Skidding in turns and high
> pressure tires (relative to the ground pressure of hiker feet) cause linear
> ruts to form in all but the most hardened tread (read that as armored with
> gravel), causing water to channel ALONG the tread, instead of the proper
> drainage ACROSS the tread, promoting erosion. Feet and hooves, when they
> make impressions in soft tread make point impressions, not channel features
> like wheels.
> > >
> > >
> > > The same observed damage applies on the Grand Ridge trail - this trail
> would be a model of what would happen to the PCT here in Washington were
> bikes to be allowed. This trail is a multi use trail - I love to ride it
> from Tiger to Duthie, do some laps there and return - it's a great work
> out. The trouble is that the tread on the Grand Ridge trail shows the wear
> and tear of the bikers - again, mud holes caused by narrow lines that the
> MTBers take, or tread that widens out where they can go around their mud
> holes they cause. Drainage is blocked by the deep cuts from MTB tracks
> throwing up berms. Linear cuts in the trail that channel water along the
> trail, promoting erosion. Also, the MTB focused members on the WTA and
> Evergreen crews have built up the turns to be MTB friendly, NOT hiker and
> horse friendly - super elevation on a switch back is nice when you're
> bombing down a hill on the bike - it sucks when you're on foot (not to
> mention that it
> > > causes drainage problems). Care to guess how long it would take the
> PCT to look like a MTB race track instead of a hiker trail were they to get
> their claws into it?
> > >
> > >
> > > Most of the trails at Tiger mountain have to be closed to bikes from
> > > October to April else the erosion problems would be far worse than they
> > > already are. Also, very few people hike on the open to MTB trails -
> they suck to hike on with the bikes coming by - the bikes drive away the
> other users.
> > >
> > >
> > > Here in Washington, the non wet season that the PCT isn't
> > > under snow is......well, if you're lucky, August to early September.
> Open the PCT here to bikes and it'll be rutted mess in no time flat.
> > >
> > >
> > > As to Wilderness: If the PCT is open, bikes WILL intrude into the
> Wilderness, period. Statements to the contrary are either pure naivety or
> lies (deliberate falsehoods with the intent to deceive). I saw the tracks
> of a flipping MTBer in Oregon on my thru hike - up the PCT for several
> miles then blow right on by the sign and on into the Wilderness where I
> followed them for miles more. MTB organizations advocate for the opening of
> Wilderness to bikes - I'll leave it to the readers to find their position
> statements attesting to this fact themselves.
> > >
> > > As to comparative statements of horse damage and bike damage: So what?
> Bikes bring zero TO the trail, unlike horses. Do hooves do more damage than
> feet? Yup. Do hooves ENABLE the trail to stay open and maintained in the
> back country? Absolutely. Bikes can't pack in the gear to support a trail
> crew dozens of miles deep into the Wilderness. Horses can and do. Just
> based on utility alone - lets see....bikes do damage and don't bring any
> particular help (as a machine) in maintaining the trail....hooves do
> damage, yet are critical assets to maintaining the trail, hence are a net
> positive....hmmmm....yup, hooves win, bikes loose that argument.
> > >
> > >
> > > MTB's on the PCT? Over my dead body. It's an incompatible use with
> hikers and equestrians plus I've worked too many hours on the trail these
> last several years to see it destroyed.
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