[pct-l] Fuel & Cooking Weight

Tue May 21 15:59:48 CDT 2013

WOW. If these numbers are correct, that is the lightest stove on the market. Even the Muka goes 11ozs. I want one!!
                Thanks!
                                jdm

From: Edward Anderson [mailto:mendoridered at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 11:21 AM
To: Jim Marco; pct-l at backcountry.net
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Fuel & Cooking Weight

Hi Jim,

My figures were accurate for all that I weighed with my very accurate and calibrared postal scale. I did forget to add the 2.5 oz. for the bucket that I store the kit in. Including the bucket, it adds up to 32.9 oz. I re-weighed everything this morning to be positive. The correct total is 32.9 oz - including the bucket, which not everyone would bring. Leave out the bucket and you get the 30.4 oz. Please note that my total figure also include .45 oz. for the bags and rubber bands that I use to keep everything from moving around. Try re-adding my numbers as given and you will get my total figures. Not everyone would bring all of the non-Jetboil things that I have found useful for my own cooking needs.

My Helios (or whatever it might have been called when I bought it in 2007) apparently weighs less that the new Helios.. You say that "It is listed as 28oz. for the system (2L pot, stove, lighter, external connections and stabilizer". The new ones must be heavier than mine. In the pictures, the stabilizer looks different than my 8" diameter collapsible stabilizer - which has always worked very well in my use from Mexico to Canada.

I should comment on the heat exchanger. This is from my own tests and lots of experience cooking on the trail. Yes, it is very effective in reducing heat loss when you are cooking with the valve fully open - but you do lose some heat beyond the heat exchanger. Turn the burner down and you lose very little heat outside the exchanger. Virtually all of the heat produced by the burner goes into heating the pot. The smaller flame is directly below the pot. The heat exchanger is needed to reduce heat loss from the larger and more spread out flame. You can feel the difference with your hand.

MendoRider-Hiker

________________________________
From: Jim Marco <jdm27 at cornell.edu<mailto:jdm27 at cornell.edu>>
To: Edward Anderson <mendoridered at yahoo.com<mailto:mendoridered at yahoo.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 1:54 AM
Subject: RE: [pct-l] Fuel & Cooking Weight

Hi All,
    Mendorider did a good outline of fuel usage and cooking weight for the trail. I believe he made a mistake in the weight of a Helios, though. It is listed as 28oz for the system (2L pot, stove, lighter, external connections & canister stabilizer.) Deducting the measured 11.65oz for the pot, lid and fin protector, we have 16.35 oz for the stove & canister stabilizer. This does not really jiving with the numbers that Mendorider-Hiker presented: "...The burner and stabilizer weigh 6.8 oz." Something is not adding up.

Jetboils are typically very fuel efficient. They can add about 10% to fuel usage with the heat exchanger. Note that the Helios is more efficient than a standard Jetboil because it has a larger heating area. It gets about 24L per larger canister. The 230g canisters weigh 8.11oz in fuel, so 8.11/24 gives is about  0.34oz per liter. At roughly 2L per day, this is about 12 days of fuel for the larger 230g canisters for most hikers. This is about 12L or 6 days for the smaller 100g fuel canisters.

Mendorider-Hiker also said his total kitchen set up was: "All of the cooking kit, described above, weighs 30.4 ounces."
Adding up all the stuff he takes, it comes out differently.
Stove & pot: 28oz
Cup: 3.5oz
Frying Pan: 5.5oz
Gripper: .95oz
Utensils: 1.5oz
Bucket: 2.5oz

I believe this might have been a mistake sine the total is 41.95oz or 2#9.95oz adding his numbers, though much can be accounted for by the mistaken weight of the stove.

The heat exchanger pots can work well. However, turning the heat down while cooking will hurt performance. Generally, heat exchangers are designed to capture excess heat from the burner. The less heat applied means that they are far less effective on high efficiency burns (usually low heat settings.) Indeed, BPL did a study (Roger Caffin, Heat Exchange Stove Shootout: Part 3 Heat Exchanger Stoves) that outlines the overall difference between heat exchanger stoves if you are interested.

    My thoughts only . . .
        jdm
-----Original Message-----
From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net<mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net> [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net<mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net>] On Behalf Of Edward Anderson
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 7:45 PM
To: Judson Brown; pct-l at backcountry.net<mailto:pct-l at backcountry.net>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Los Padres National forest fire ban

Hello Judson,

You asked me two questions.  1)" What is a good estimate for life span on a canister if I'm just using it for cooking dinner.".  A) It will depend on what size canister and, of course, what you are cooking. The larger canister weighs 12.75 oz. and holds 7.76 oz. of fuel. The smaller one weighs 7.0 oz and holds 3.53 oz of fuel. I bought mine at REI and used the Snow Peak "Giga Power" rather than the Jetboil "Jetpower". They provide the same fuel - the Snowpeak were less expensive. Cookng both breakfast and dinner, using the larger canister, I could get six or seven days. I always also brought a seven oz. canister as a backup, and rarely needed it during the four year ride. I mostly lived on the trail for over six and one-half months. I did not hitch into towns as most hikers do - can't with a horse. (Resupplied  myself near trail heads and road crossings) At the end of my four year journey my small canister still weighs 5.25 oz -  so, I used only a total of 1.75 oz. of fuel for backup. (Proper disposal of an empty canister, for me, was sometimes a small problem. If it was near empty, I would drain it completely with valve open and no flame Then wait until I came to a trash disposal container.)

Question 2)  " Which model do you use?"  A) In the fall of 2007, I bought what is now called a Jetboil model Helios. They have come out with other, lighter, models since I bought mine. My Helios includes a two liter cooking pot with heat exchanger for improved efficiency. It is insulated on the outside, which works well to keep food warm once cooked. It also has a removable plastic bottom protector for the heat exchanger. It has a plastic lid that snaps on the top that can be used as a dish. (The pot, including top and bottom plastic parts, weighs 11.65 oz.)  Of  course, the burner itself with a plastic, 8" diameter stabilizer is also included with the Helios. I could snap either the larger or the smaller canisters into the stabilizer (The burner and stabilizer weigh 6.8 oz.).

My cooking kit is different. In addition to the Helios, I bring a stainless steel, one pint, Cascade cup without the removable handle, it weighs 3,50 oz. That cup is an old friend, I have used it since the 60's. I use it for my special hot chocolate (460 calories) both with breakfast and dinner. I also make my instant oatmeal in it and use it when I make gravy for mashed potatoes. ( one good dinner is Idahoan MP's (4oz.), country gravy, with hand chunked  and smoke flavored beef steak (1 oz.). Sometimes I have fresh trout).  I bring a lightweight (5.5 oz) .frying pan to fry trout or for pancakes. I fry with peanut oil since it does not break down due to being heated like some other oils - it can be strained and re-used. I sometimes make trout stew in the 2 liter pot, using  my dehydrated veggies and vegetable soup mix. In some areas trout and some wild plants that I am familiar with become part of my diet. I bring an MSR gripper-handle (.95 oz.) for  the fry pan and Cascade cup. As part of my cook kit, I bring Jetboil telescoping spoon, fork, and spatula amd a plastic butter knife with handle cut off (all of these weigh 1,5 oz.). All of the above, except the fuel canisters and food, nestle nicely together. I use 5 oatmeal bags, one Ziplock sandwich bag, and two rubber bands to keep things from moving around and together in the 2 liter pot(.45 oz.). That goes into a Seattle Sport 2 gallon collapsible bucket (2.5 oz.). The bucket is useful in that I can wash (usually rinse) clothes or cooking utinsils well away from water sources. I can also use it, along with another, larger, collapsible bucket to carry water for my horse in a few places where he can't reach it.

All of the cooking kit, described above, weighs 30.4 ounces. I realize that you, Judson, and other hikers, would not need to bring all that I do. You can get those special meals when you hitch into towns. To just cook dinner, I would think that a small canister would last 6 or 7 days.

Have a great hike,

MendoRider-Hiker

________________________________
From: Judson Brown <judsonwb at gmail.com<mailto:judsonwb at gmail.com>>
To: Edward Anderson <mendoridered at yahoo.com<mailto:mendoridered at yahoo.com>>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Los Padres National forest fire ban

Coupla questions:
1. what is a good estimate for lifespan on a canister if I'm just using it for cooking dinner?
2. which model do you use?

On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Edward Anderson <mendoridered at yahoo.com<mailto:mendoridered at yahoo.com>> wrote:

Hello Judson and Jon,
>
>
>I'm sure that a thru hiker would be OK - even if he only had a digging trowel rather than a shovel. What is far more important is that you are in compliance with the other requirements.
>
>
>Of course, going cookless would be best, but most of us want to sometimes have a hot meal. And it can occasionally be cold in the desert - really.
>
>
>I brought a Jetboil canister stove, and used it during my ride from Mexico to Canada. It has advantages over alcohol.  1) It is legal.  2) The canister fuel has substantially greater BTU's than alcohol - you can cook much faster.  3) There is NO wasted fuel - I open the valve and push the starter spark button at the same time. I can turn off the valve when I'm finished cooking. I can lower the flame and simmer if I want to. ( I have found that cooking at less than full valve is more fuel efficient)   4) The canisters can be sent to your resupply location.  5)  Fuel canisters have become increasingly available at more locations along the PCT.  6) It is not necessary to pour the fuel into the burner, as you must with a soda can stove. It isn't necessary to judge how much fuel to pour. Less waste. 7) All conditions considered, it is safer. You are less likely to start a wildfire.
>
>
>
>Just my opinion
>
>
>MendoRider-Hiker,
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: Judson Brown <judsonwb at gmail.com<mailto:judsonwb at gmail.com>>
>To: "belcherjd at juno.com<mailto:belcherjd at juno.com>" <belcherjd at juno.com<mailto:belcherjd at juno.com>>
>Cc: PCT MailingList <pct-l at backcountry.net<mailto:pct-l at backcountry.net>>
>Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 8:15 PM
>Subject: Re: [pct-l] Los Padres National forest fire ban
>
>
>Unfortunately, it seems as if there is no way for thru hikers to be in full
>compliance of this. And I'm sure they're not too excited about homemade
>stoves using denatured alcohol...
>
>
>On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 4:54 PM, belcherjd at juno.com<mailto:belcherjd at juno.com> <belcherjd at juno.com<mailto:belcherjd at juno.com>>wrote:
>
>> An exert from the Los Padres National Forest fire ban site
>> http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/lpnf/home/?cid=stelprdb5401877
>>
>> • Wood and charcoal fires are prohibited in all areas of Los Padres
>> National Forest except for designated Campfire Use sites; however persons
>> with a valid California Campfire Permit are allowed to use portable
stoves
>> and lanterns using gas, jellied petroleum or pressurized liquid fuel
>> outside of designated Campfire Use Sites. California Campfire Permits are
>> available for free download from the Los Padres National Forest website
>> http://www.fs.usda.gov/lpnf
>> You must clear all flammable material for a distance of five feet in all
>> directions from your camp stove, have a shovel available, and ensure that a
>> responsible person attends the stove at all times when it is in use.
>>
>> I read this as: Jetboil stoves are allowed (pressurize canisters)
>> MSR Whisperlite is allowed (Gas)  sterno type stoves are allowed (if using
>> jellied petroleum not liquid) but a homemade cat stove would not be allowed
>> (if using liquid alcohol).
>>
>> However, even if these stoves are allowed or not, how many of us are
>>
carrying a shovel?
>>  I carry a ti trowel but not a shovel.
>>
>> 'til later,
>> Jon (Gandalf - PCT class of 2013)
>> Marysville WA