[pct-l] New Mountain Education videos on YouTube!
Matt Signore
mpsignore at gmail.com
Tue Jul 1 16:14:58 CDT 2014
Ok well since there are about 2600+ people on the list serve and exactly 2
people have stepped up and offered contrary opinions, and one privately in
support. Who is of the minority opinion? You Walt? Or me?
He let someone fall and get really hurt under his guidance. When you read
the Mountain Education mission statement it is completely contrary to what
is actually practiced by his guide service.
Mission:
“To minimize wilderness accidents, injury, and illness through experiential
education and risk awareness training.”
- Mountain Education
Maybe Ned needs to re read that before each trip, and actually employ the
message
As far as not being having the client tied in.
If any credible accredited guide service has clients traversing snow, and
the potential fall hazard is a treeline, crevasse, cliff, and or a boulder
field the client will be on a rope. One of two things is true about his
clients fall. Either Ned is too inexperienced to understand what a fall
hazard is or he doesn't care. Either way it is the guide's (sic)
responsibility to get you home safely. The problem is if you are taking
his class you don't know just how unsafe Ned is being during his course.
Just because you went to high school does not qualify you to teach high
school. You need a teaching degree to teach. Even when it isn't a life
or death, safe or hurt decision people still want certifications.
Same with mountaineering you should be certified to teach mountaineering
before you are teaching people. The difference if you get an "F" on your
Algebra test you don't die. If you fail in mountaineering your emergency
contact gets a phone call and you never celebrate another birthday. What
is more important education or continuing to breathe? You wouldn't think
of hiring a nanny without a background check to make sure your child is
safe with that person. It would behoove you to take the same due diligence
when picking a guide that is keeping you alive.
If he were worth hiring don't you think he would be working with one of the
many guide services operating in the same locations? Realistically there
is not a single guide service willing to hire him. They can't hire him
because he lacks certification. If a guide service isn't willing to hire
him why should you? The difference between you and a guide service is that
they already know he isn't qualified to teach.
Walt you are absolutely correct you do not need a rope to hike the PCT in
season, but there are many other things taught by Mountain Education that
will never come into play. It has been done by a ton of people 10's of
thousands in fact without a rope. However, there have been conditions that
people "sit out" or skip around. Why didn't he take the class to a
different safer location?
Make sure to learn the following at Mountain Education also.
- Emergency Shelters
Snow Pit Analysis
Seriously who carries a shovel on the PCT? That is one of the few ways
to dig the pit and the snow cave.
In fact one class member had the guts to turn around based on novice
ability and instinct alone. That person is probably going to hike this
year. Was that client still with a guide when they turned around? Because
at Mountain Education they have standards or they would like you to believe
if you read their website. Here is the standard they set and adhere to or
so they say.
- When traveling, everyone stays together and along a specifically
designated route with your Instructors in front and back of your group.
The client Ned led into less than ideal conditions is not doing as well.
The guide standard is to never split from your client ever. In fact if
one person needs to turn around and there are not any other guides on the
trip the entire class has to turn around. If I recall correctly the ratio
can never go beyond 4:1 Once you sign on for a course with a guide they
are responsible for your well being. In fact you can't be left alone at
camp without a guide if you are on their permit.
As far as the over ego - pomposity comment. That was actually displayed by
Ned when he didn't choose to turn the class around. It takes more guts to
turn around than continue. Sadly his client got the hubris check that Ned
actually deserves. Knowing when you are in over your head. Now that is
just as important a lesson to learn as self arrest.
Also you can learn how to self arrest in about 4 hours. That is with a
group of 4:1 client to guide ratio. If it is just you and a friend it
would take half that time. You can learn on a sledding hill behind a
school or at a ski resort. Just ask. There is no need to put people at
risk, and that is what he continues to do year after year. Ned won't come
on the list to defend his actions or lack there of. The reason why is
because the actions are indefensible.
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 2:32 PM, walt Durling <durlfam4 at icloud.com> wrote:
> Wow, Signore seems to be suffering a bit from over-ego and pomposity. As
> far as I can discern, Tibbett covers typical PCT conditions, not the
> frikin' French Alps or Himalaya's! Ive met the man on the trail and found
> him very knowledgeable and personable. His techniques are basic, but NTL
> important for what one may encounter in the high Sierra or Cascades.
>
> Roping? Forsooth! There are hundreds of solitary hikers out there on the
> trail, and I'm one of them. What am I gonna do with it? Lasso a pine
> tree? What I need to know is how not to fall down a snow-covered slope,
> and if I do, how to recover. One can graduate from any mountaineering
> school anywhere complete with bona fide certified instructors......and
> still fall and die. It happens. It ain't Disney World out there!
>
> Ned provides a vital service anyone can profit from who hikes trails such
> as the PCT, and has done so for years. That's not to say that his services
> are absolutely needed to successfully hike the trail, but we all can stand
> to learn something, and having basic snow skills adds a bit of safety.
>
> Signore's lambast is off the mark.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Jun 30, 2014, at 16:02, Dave Fajer <davefajer at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Wow! If you have credentials...you didn't list them......can you?
> >
> > I have taken 3 courses from Mountain Education...All perfectly safe but
> challenging IMHO and perfect for preps for my intended forays.
> >
> > I see some rancor in your words for sure......perhaps some personal
> issues and experiences too!. Please help me understand better where you
> are coming from.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Coastal
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
> >
> > <div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Matt Signore <
> mpsignore at gmail.com> </div><div>Date:06/30/2014 12:38 PM (GMT-08:00)
> </div><div>To: Ned Tibbits <ned at mountaineducation.org> </div><div>Cc:
> johnmuirtrail at yahoogroups.com, pct-l <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> </div><div>Subject: Re: [pct-l] New Mountain Education videos on YouTube!
> </div><div>
> > </div>I would rather see the video of the guy plummeting down Harts Pass
> breaking
> > 3 ribs and his scalp laceration. You know the guy that should have been
> > roped to you as his guide. he as your client. Especially since he didn't
> > know how to self arrest yet. His blood is literally on your hands.
> >
> > No credible guide service would allow a client to travel un-roped with
> the
> > objective hazards Harts Pass can present. If you cannot teach roped
> > travel, and manage a rope team you should reconsider guiding clients.
> You
> > could more safely teach snow basic courses at a ski resort and eliminate
> > the risk to your clients? That would cost each person a lift ticket at
> > most.
> >
> > Instead of linking Youtube videos I would rather see a link to the
> permits
> > you have gotten from the Federal Land Agency where you are offering
> > classes. Maybe even an AMGA guide certificate. Because if that same
> > incident would have occurred with an AMGA certified guide I am quite sure
> > the AMGA would revoke his guide's license. You just don't seem to care
> > enough to carry a rope.
> >
> > I hate to nit pick, but you obviously are not taking the necessary
> > precautions to keep your clients safe. A guide needs to teach and take
> > necessary precautions to ensure your clients the best and safest possible
> > experience. Everytime you post about your guide service I will make sure
> > this comes up. You are not doing anyone any favors in this fashion. You
> > are putting them in harms way. The client is just too blind to see that
> > until it is too late.
> >
> > Matt Signore
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pct-L mailing list
> > Pct-L at backcountry.net
> > To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >
> > List Archives:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pct-L mailing list
> > Pct-L at backcountry.net
> > To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> >
> > List Archives:
> > http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
> > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
>
--
Matt Signore
*http://www.yogisbooks.com/ <http://www.yogisbooks.com/>*
More information about the Pct-L
mailing list