[pct-l] New Mountain Education videos on YouTube!
Jackie McDonnell
yogihikes at gmail.com
Wed Jul 2 16:27:23 CDT 2014
Ned -
Yes, I realize that you are not teaching rock climbing, but I suspect the
permit laws discussed below still apply.
The following passage is quoted from “Rock Climbing The AMGA Single Pitch
Manual” by Bob Gaines and Jason Martin. Copyright May 20, 2014. Jason is
on the AMGA Board of Directors. I’m pretty sure he knows what he’s talking
about!
-----------------------------------
“Operating on public lands without a permit is breaking the law and could
result in a wide array of consequences. These range from a minor citation
to a significant fine or even an arrest. In some cases it is possible to
be permanently banned from public lands for willfully disregarding land-use
regulations.
There are two main questions that an individual or an organization should
ask to determine whether or not a land-use permit is required:
(1) DID THE PARTICIPANTS PAY TO ENGAGE IN THE ACTIVITY? Did they pay any
fee at all? Were they asked to pay tuition for the course or guided days?
Were they asked to submit a donation to the program? Are they required to
rent equipment from the operation in order to participate? If the answer
to any of these questions is yes, then the land manager should be contacted
to determine if a commercial-use permit is required.
(2) ARE THE INSTRUCTORS GETTING PAID TO RUN THE PROGRAM OR PROVIDE
INSTRUCTION? If the instructors receive any kind of compensation, then
they or the organization will need to obtain a permit. Compensation could
mean an hourly or daily wage, a stipend, meals, or even “free” equipment.
Nearly any type of compensation outside of a thank-you constitutes
commercial use.”
-------------------------------------------
So, Ned, your site has a “Cost” section, in which you state: “Suggested
contribution $300 per person.” That seems like more than a thank-you to me.
Yogi
www.yogisbooks.com
On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 3:57 PM, Jackie McDonnell <yogihikes at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Ned -
>
> REGARDING PAYMENT:
>
> Today you stated over and over that you provide your services for free:
>
> "We do not require payment for the things we teach. If our students want
> to pay anything, or donate to the cause, that is up to them and not
> expected or required." "This is a full-time venture that is not
> income-producing, thus we are constantly struggling to survive to give away
> what we do. "We haven't done this for money." "We are not a
> business that trades its service to customers for any tangible exchange. We
> are not a Guide Service that receives money for guiding people places."
> "We are just people who want to help other people for free and at our
> expense." "We don't require payment for what we freely give."
>
> Hmmmmmm. You stated on June 30 in your original post: "We are now a
> public benefit, non-profit, educational institution/business and can only
> continue to help and train hikers with your financial help."
>
> Which is it? You provide your services for free? Or do you require
> financial help? You can't have it both ways. The mere mention of needing
> financial help DIRECTLY IMPLIES that your students SHOULD pay! You know
> that, I know that, everyone reading your post knows that.
>
>
> REGARDING GUIDING PEOPLE:
>
> Today you stated: "We are as if, according to them, a friend or
> acquaintance going with you out on the trail to show
>
> you a few trail skills that might make your hike easier and safer."
>
> Seriously? You believe that? YOU HAVE A FREAKIN' APPLICATION ON YOUR
> WEBSITE!!!! That is not "friends" or "acquaintances" going on the trail.
> The people filling out the application are looking to you for guidance.
> You are the teacher, they are the student. Yet you are doing everything
> possible to get around any permits/regulations. Just admit it.
>
> REGARDING DANGER:
>
> Today you stated: If conditions present exceed our training and the
> safety of our group, we do not continue."
>
> That is a flat-out lie. You recently almost killed someone up in
> Washington. One member of the group found the conditions too dangerous to
> continue so THAT PERSON turned around. Did any teachers accompany that
> student on the return trip? I doubt it. You continued with your students
> (er......'scuse me.........I guess they are your "friends" or
> "acquaintances"). You took those students on a slope which had conditions
> so bad that one student slid down the mountain. Fortunately, a tree
> stopped his slide. Unfortunately, he slammed into the tree so hard that he
> broke several ribs, had to be rescued by a helicopter, and now his chance
> for a sobo thru-hike is gone. Hmmmmmm. You keep neglecting to tell the
> list about that.
>
> Yogi
> www.yogisbooks.com
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Ned Tibbits <ned at mountaineducation.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi, Matt,
>>
>> It is for the betterment of those in our growing hiking community and
>> following this conversation that I respond to your prior emails.
>>
>> People do need to realize, when considering backpacking on a National
>> Scenic
>> Trail, where they may encounter levels of difficulty or hazards that may
>> expose them to injury, that they may need to learn risk-assessment and
>> become better skills-educated about the likely risks ahead, so they are at
>> least generally prepared to evaluate dangers in the wilderness before
>> deciding to place themselves in harms way. All aspiring wilderness hikers
>> should have knowledge of the environmental risks and hazards into which
>> they
>> are placing themselves when backpacking and the necessary medical response
>> skills in case an accident happens. Nevertheless, as we all know, even the
>> professionals who are well trained (I am thinking of Ski Patrol and
>> Search &
>> Rescue members) and who are out there all the time get hurt. Wilderness is
>> too beautiful a place for anything bad to happen. We all want to have safe
>> and fun hikes, but accidents do occur, no matter how wise or careful we
>> become with experience or training.
>>
>> We have found that talking to people about the risky conditions and
>> hazards
>> that exist in wilderness (because they don't know they are out there or
>> don't want to believe it), showing them what they really look like
>> (because
>> they don't know or haven't seen them yet), teaching them how to recognize
>> and safety-assess those risky conditions (because it is always better to
>> avoid danger, first), and demonstrate any skills or abilities that might
>> help them safely deal with those conditions helps them have happier and
>> more
>> confident trips of their own.
>>
>> More and more people are wanting to go hiking again. Most think a
>> backpacking trip is a "walk in the park" and don't know for what they
>> should
>> prepare and, thus, find themselves surprised by any personally or
>> environmentally challenging conditions they run into. We are interested in
>> helping hikers know what to prepare for, according to the degree of
>> difficulty prevalent where they are going, so they can choose trails
>> within
>> their experience and ability levels and minimize (because accidents
>> happen)
>> the chances of getting hurt and maximize their enjoyment of the
>> wilderness.
>> If they want to go onto conditions beyond our training and experience, we
>> encourage them to attend training courses from requisite technically
>> certificated sources.
>>
>> It seems that you have overlooked a couple of things, so let me help you
>> understand:
>>
>> We are not a Business:
>> We do not require payment for the things we teach. If our students want to
>> pay anything, or donate to the cause, that is up to them and not expected
>> or
>> required. (We are in the process of change, however, so this will be
>> different in the future. We are incorporating as a 501(c)(3), have a new
>> Board of Directors, and will be charging for next year's courses like any
>> public-benefit educational institution).
>>
>> What we do, whether driving to and presenting at public events or driving
>> to
>> and teaching our courses or making ourselves available all day every day
>> to
>> answer questions and post pictures/videos online or over the phone, is
>> accomplished almost entirely at our own expense, the finances for which we
>> have none, since this is a full-time venture that is not income-producing,
>> thus we are constantly struggling to survive to give away what we do. This
>> is our choice.
>>
>> Regarding Special Use Permits:
>> Because we haven't done this for money, but out of a passion to share our
>> experience (of over 40 years and two thru hikes) to help hikers stay safe
>> out there, the Land Management Agencies (like the USFS and NPS), don't
>> require us to apply for and obtain Special Use Permits to conduct an
>> otherwise income-producing business on public land. We are as if,
>> according
>> to them, a friend or acquaintance going with you out on the trail to show
>> you a few trail skills that might make your hike easier and safer.
>>
>> Regarding Insurance:
>> For the same reason, we are not required to have insurance. (Obviously,
>> because we desire to become a legitimate business, for next year this will
>> change). We might want to carry personal insurance, but that is up to us.
>> To
>> protect ourselves a little, personally, and better inform our students of
>> what they are getting into, we do ask that they sign a Risk Awareness
>> Statement and Release of Liability Waiver. We make sure, also, that they
>> have been thoroughly informed about and see, via pictures and video, the
>> conditions into which they are choosing to go.
>>
>> Regarding not being a Guide Service:
>> Again, we are not a business that trades its service to customers for any
>> tangible exchange. We are not a Guide Service that receives money for
>> guiding people places. So, what we provide does not fall under any
>> business
>> regulations or restrictions. In essence, we are just people who want to
>> help
>> other people for free and at our expense. We do accompany people into the
>> backcountry to share of what we have learned over the years.
>>
>> Regarding the skills we teach:
>> According to the American Mountain Guides Association (AMGA), we do not
>> need
>> to be AMGA trained or certified because we do not go onto slopes where its
>> Grade or Class rating would suggest climbing-level certification to
>> maintain
>> personal safety. Therefore, we do not teach "mountaineering" or technical
>> climbing skills. According to the AMGA, showing someone how to use an ice
>> axe for self-arrest on non-technical slopes does not require certification
>> from them. This skill is included in a Mountaineering Course where the
>> context takes students, guests, or clients onto slopes steep and severe
>> enough where this response skill may be necessary for personal and group
>> safety. We are a wilderness backpacking school that teaches people about
>> snow-camping and travel. According to the AMGA, there are no slopes on the
>> Pacific Crest Trail that would require mountaineering techniques or
>> adjuncts.
>>
>> Nevertheless, we hold and renew yearly certificates from the American
>> Avalanche Association and the American Institute for Avalanche Research
>> and
>> Education (AIARE) to help us risk-assess the kind of snow slopes we do
>> travel upon. We feel this level of education and training is necessary to
>> keep our students safe over the degree of difficulty we encounter. We are
>> Wilderness EMT, Search & Rescue, and National Ski Patrol trained and
>> yearly
>> current and retired Paramedic and USFS Wilderness Ranger experienced.
>>
>> In Sum:
>>
>> We are not a Guide Service because we are not a business.
>> We do not need Special Use Permits because we don't require payment for
>> what
>> we freely give.
>> We do not teach technical mountaineering skills or certification because
>> we
>> do not go anywhere requiring them.
>> If conditions present exceed our training and the safety of our group, we
>> do
>> not continue.
>> We (and our students) recognize that accidents are unpredictable and
>> happen
>> no matter your training, experience, or expertise.
>> We encourage all aspiring hikers to know the risks into which they are
>> headed before leaving from the trailhead.
>> If you are headed for sufficiently steep Grades or Classes of slope that
>> require mountaineering skills, go to a certificated trainer.
>>
>>
>> Ned Tibbits, Director
>> Mountain Education
>> www.mountaineducation.org
>>
>> Mission:
>> "To minimize wilderness accidents, injury, and illness through
>> experiential
>> education and risk awareness training."
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Matt Signore
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 2:14 PM
>> To: pct-l
>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] New Mountain Education videos on YouTube!
>>
>> Ok well since there are about 2600+ people on the list serve and exactly 2
>> people have stepped up and offered contrary opinions, and one privately in
>> support. Who is of the minority opinion? You Walt? Or me?
>>
>> He let someone fall and get really hurt under his guidance. When you read
>> the Mountain Education mission statement it is completely contrary to what
>> is actually practiced by his guide service.
>>
>> Mission:
>> “To minimize wilderness accidents, injury, and illness through
>> experiential
>> education and risk awareness training.”
>> - Mountain Education
>>
>> Maybe Ned needs to re read that before each trip, and actually employ the
>> message
>>
>> As far as not being having the client tied in.
>>
>> If any credible accredited guide service has clients traversing snow, and
>> the potential fall hazard is a treeline, crevasse, cliff, and or a boulder
>> field the client will be on a rope. One of two things is true about his
>> clients fall. Either Ned is too inexperienced to understand what a fall
>> hazard is or he doesn't care. Either way it is the guide's (sic)
>> responsibility to get you home safely. The problem is if you are taking
>> his class you don't know just how unsafe Ned is being during his course.
>>
>> Just because you went to high school does not qualify you to teach high
>> school. You need a teaching degree to teach. Even when it isn't a life
>> or death, safe or hurt decision people still want certifications.
>> Same with mountaineering you should be certified to teach mountaineering
>> before you are teaching people. The difference if you get an "F" on your
>> Algebra test you don't die. If you fail in mountaineering your emergency
>> contact gets a phone call and you never celebrate another birthday. What
>> is more important education or continuing to breathe? You wouldn't think
>> of hiring a nanny without a background check to make sure your child is
>> safe with that person. It would behoove you to take the same due
>> diligence
>> when picking a guide that is keeping you alive.
>>
>> If he were worth hiring don't you think he would be working with one of
>> the
>> many guide services operating in the same locations? Realistically there
>> is not a single guide service willing to hire him. They can't hire him
>> because he lacks certification. If a guide service isn't willing to hire
>> him why should you? The difference between you and a guide service is
>> that
>> they already know he isn't qualified to teach.
>>
>> Walt you are absolutely correct you do not need a rope to hike the PCT in
>> season, but there are many other things taught by Mountain Education that
>> will never come into play. It has been done by a ton of people 10's of
>> thousands in fact without a rope. However, there have been conditions
>> that
>> people "sit out" or skip around. Why didn't he take the class to a
>> different safer location?
>>
>> Make sure to learn the following at Mountain Education also.
>>
>> - Emergency Shelters
>>
>> Snow Pit Analysis
>>
>> Seriously who carries a shovel on the PCT? That is one of the few ways
>> to dig the pit and the snow cave.
>>
>>
>> In fact one class member had the guts to turn around based on novice
>> ability and instinct alone. That person is probably going to hike this
>> year. Was that client still with a guide when they turned around?
>> Because
>> at Mountain Education they have standards or they would like you to
>> believe
>> if you read their website. Here is the standard they set and adhere to or
>> so they say.
>>
>>
>> - When traveling, everyone stays together and along a specifically
>> designated route with your Instructors in front and back of your group.
>>
>> The client Ned led into less than ideal conditions is not doing as well.
>> The guide standard is to never split from your client ever. In fact if
>> one person needs to turn around and there are not any other guides on the
>> trip the entire class has to turn around. If I recall correctly the ratio
>> can never go beyond 4:1 Once you sign on for a course with a guide they
>> are responsible for your well being. In fact you can't be left alone at
>> camp without a guide if you are on their permit.
>>
>> As far as the over ego - pomposity comment. That was actually displayed
>> by
>> Ned when he didn't choose to turn the class around. It takes more guts to
>> turn around than continue. Sadly his client got the hubris check that Ned
>> actually deserves. Knowing when you are in over your head. Now that is
>> just as important a lesson to learn as self arrest.
>>
>> Also you can learn how to self arrest in about 4 hours. That is with a
>> group of 4:1 client to guide ratio. If it is just you and a friend it
>> would take half that time. You can learn on a sledding hill behind a
>> school or at a ski resort. Just ask. There is no need to put people at
>> risk, and that is what he continues to do year after year. Ned won't come
>> on the list to defend his actions or lack there of. The reason why is
>> because the actions are indefensible.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 2:32 PM, walt Durling <durlfam4 at icloud.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Wow, Signore seems to be suffering a bit from over-ego and pomposity.
>> As
>> > far as I can discern, Tibbett covers typical PCT conditions, not the
>> > frikin' French Alps or Himalaya's! Ive met the man on the trail and
>> > found
>> > him very knowledgeable and personable. His techniques are basic, but
>> NTL
>> > important for what one may encounter in the high Sierra or Cascades.
>> >
>> > Roping? Forsooth! There are hundreds of solitary hikers out there on
>> the
>> > trail, and I'm one of them. What am I gonna do with it? Lasso a pine
>> > tree? What I need to know is how not to fall down a snow-covered slope,
>> > and if I do, how to recover. One can graduate from any mountaineering
>> > school anywhere complete with bona fide certified instructors......and
>> > still fall and die. It happens. It ain't Disney World out there!
>> >
>> > Ned provides a vital service anyone can profit from who hikes trails
>> such
>> > as the PCT, and has done so for years. That's not to say that his
>> > services
>> > are absolutely needed to successfully hike the trail, but we all can
>> stand
>> > to learn something, and having basic snow skills adds a bit of safety.
>> >
>> > Signore's lambast is off the mark.
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPad
>> >
>> > > On Jun 30, 2014, at 16:02, Dave Fajer <davefajer at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Wow! If you have credentials...you didn't list them......can you?
>> > >
>> > > I have taken 3 courses from Mountain Education...All perfectly safe
>> but
>> > challenging IMHO and perfect for preps for my intended forays.
>> > >
>> > > I see some rancor in your words for sure......perhaps some personal
>> > issues and experiences too!. Please help me understand better where you
>> > are coming from.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > >
>> > > Coastal
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>> > >
>> > > <div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Matt Signore <
>> > mpsignore at gmail.com> </div><div>Date:06/30/2014 12:38 PM (GMT-08:00)
>> > </div><div>To: Ned Tibbits <ned at mountaineducation.org> </div><div>Cc:
>> > johnmuirtrail at yahoogroups.com, pct-l <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>> > </div><div>Subject: Re: [pct-l] New Mountain Education videos on
>> YouTube!
>> > </div><div>
>> > > </div>I would rather see the video of the guy plummeting down Harts
>> Pass
>> > breaking
>> > > 3 ribs and his scalp laceration. You know the guy that should have
>> been
>> > > roped to you as his guide. he as your client. Especially since he
>> > > didn't
>> > > know how to self arrest yet. His blood is literally on your hands.
>> > >
>> > > No credible guide service would allow a client to travel un-roped with
>> > the
>> > > objective hazards Harts Pass can present. If you cannot teach roped
>> > > travel, and manage a rope team you should reconsider guiding clients.
>> > You
>> > > could more safely teach snow basic courses at a ski resort and
>> eliminate
>> > > the risk to your clients? That would cost each person a lift ticket
>> at
>> > > most.
>> > >
>> > > Instead of linking Youtube videos I would rather see a link to the
>> > permits
>> > > you have gotten from the Federal Land Agency where you are offering
>> > > classes. Maybe even an AMGA guide certificate. Because if that same
>> > > incident would have occurred with an AMGA certified guide I am quite
>> > > sure
>> > > the AMGA would revoke his guide's license. You just don't seem to
>> care
>> > > enough to carry a rope.
>> > >
>> > > I hate to nit pick, but you obviously are not taking the necessary
>> > > precautions to keep your clients safe. A guide needs to teach and
>> take
>> > > necessary precautions to ensure your clients the best and safest
>> > > possible
>> > > experience. Everytime you post about your guide service I will make
>> > > sure
>> > > this comes up. You are not doing anyone any favors in this fashion.
>> > > You
>> > > are putting them in harms way. The client is just too blind to see
>> that
>> > > until it is too late.
>> > >
>> > > Matt Signore
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Pct-L mailing list
>> > > Pct-L at backcountry.net
>> > > To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
>> > > http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>> > >
>> > > List Archives:
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>> > > All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
>> > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
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>> > > Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Signore
>> *http://www.yogisbooks.com/ <http://www.yogisbooks.com/>*
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