[pct-l] Permits 2017

Wed Sep 28 14:51:42 CDT 2016

https://www.outsideonline.com/2087776/what-are-all-these-hikers-doing-pct

Is it BS that I was witness to overcrowded trails and  campsites last year
that I have never seen in over 30 years of backpacking?  Let me ask
everyone's opinion?  Would you enjoy backpacking as much if everywhere you
go you were to unable to find a solitary or near solitary place?  Why have
quotas in the first place?
On Sep 28, 2016 12:24 PM, "Sabrina Harrison" <troopharrison at gmail.com>
wrote:

> As are many of you, I'm anxiously awaiting JMT Reinhold's wit and wisdom
> on this
>
> Hacker
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 28, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Cody B <moonbeams13 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > James,
> >
> > I agree that the system needs improvements, particularly surrounding
> alpine
> > environments which take much longer to rebound from environmental impact
> > than most ecosystems at lower elevations. This is one of those annoying
> > little intersections of science and policy that will probably never have
> a
> > perfect solution and requires an ever-evolving approach. The Southern
> > Terminus permit limit is a good starting point because it addresses the
> > majority of hikers and doesn't dictate things like how fast one has to
> > move. It is minimally intrusive to people's plans compared to quotas that
> > may be implemented along the way. I think that there are a couple ways
> this
> > could be approached in the Sierra, perhaps by utilizing semi-flexible
> > permitting for that section (say ability to enter within a certain range
> of
> > dates depending upon your hiking speed cuz as we all know, things never
> go
> > according to plan), but there is still a lot of work that needs to be
> done
> > before a mid-way restriction could be responsibly implemented.
> >
> > Wikipedia
> >
> >> On Sep 28, 2016 1:02 PM, "James Vesely" <veselyjames at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Interesting discussion but it fails to resolve the issue of overuse and
> >> potential negative effects of PCT hikers who are entering high use
> >> wilderness areas such as in Cleveland/Descanso, Mt. San Jacinto
> >> wilderness,  Sierra Nevada mountains and others.
> >>
> >> Large slugs of PCT hikers are entering National Forest, and National
> Park
> >> regions that have very stringent entry quota permits, some of which are
> >> almost impossible to obtain outside of having a "PCT hiking permit".
> I
> >> am aware that not all PCT hikers with "PCT permits" that start at the
> >> Mexican boarder make it to "permit required areas" but a substantial
> number
> >> of hikers that do make it, seem to have a carte blanche pass that allows
> >> them to bypass all entry point quotas for any given day of the week in
> at
> >> any point on the trail system.  Quotas that were setup to reduce impact
> and
> >> crowding are basically worthless when 50 or more (assuming 50/day
> >> separation) are allowed to enter at their convenience.
> >>
> >> A good example of this is what happens in the Sierra Nevada mountains
> >> during the short hiking season.   In the past PCT hikers were fewer in
> >> number and a majority of them would normally have completed the southern
> >> Sierra's by the end of June.  In the year 1993 when the golden spike was
> >> hammered into the ground to commemorate the PCT, 35 people had completed
> >> the trail and in the year 2016 the number was 647.   The total number of
> >> permits issued in 2015 was 4453 and this does not include the hikers,
> whom,
> >> as Brick stated do not bother to get thru-hike permits. The number of
> PCT
> >> hikers will no doubt continue to rise.
> >>
> >> I am a big fan of the PCT and although my attempt at hiking the PCT in
> 1978
> >> failed, I have always thought I would give it another try.  In the mean
> >> time, I still love to do local hikes in the Sierra Nevada mountains and
> >> during one of my hikes last year I saw first hand evidence of huge
> crowds
> >> of hikers (> half were PCT) that I have never seen before.  We all love
> >> backpacking for different reasons but I believe the main reason so many
> of
> >> us enjoy the sport is for the solitude it can offer and for the amazing
> >> uncrowded pristine scenery it can provide.  Having uncontrolled numbers
> of
> >> people entering sensitive back-country wilderness, in what was once a
> >> thoughtfully regulated quota system, can not only damage sensitive
> >> wilderness areas but also make the backpacking experience much less
> >> meaningful.
> >>
> >> The impact of large numbers of hikers that basically game the system and
> >> have legal uncontrolled access to any wilderness area at any time, at
> any
> >> place throughout the summer will have to, someday, be addressed before
> it
> >> destroys all the main reasons we all enjoy the sport of backpacking so
> >> much.   I would love to hear input from the backpack community on
> whether
> >> they believe this is an issue or not and what should be done if
> anything.
> >>
> >>
> >> Concerned hiker.
> >>
> >>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:01 PM, Cody B <moonbeams13 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Richard -
> >>>
> >>> Permits are required in Yosemite, but not necessarily PCT permits. You
> >>> could have had a wilderness permit specifically for that are issued by
> >> the
> >>> NPS instead.
> >>>
> >>> Wikipedia
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Richard Brinkman <
> richardb10 at live.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> In Yosemite, I was asked by a Ranger to show my PCT thru-hiker permit.
> >>>> Thank goodness I had it, albeit folded in a ziplock.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roadwalker, '15
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Pct-L [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net] On Behalf Of Cody
> B
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 3:39 PM
> >>>> To: Robert E. Riess
> >>>> Cc: PCT-L
> >>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Permits 2017
> >>>>
> >>>> BR,
> >>>>
> >>>> The permit limits are in place to protect the fragile environments and
> >>>> ecosystems that the Pacific Crest Trail passes through from overuse by
> >>>> hikers. They are there for a very good reason and it is indeed backed
> >> by
> >>>> research on environmental impact. The first several hundred miles are
> >>>> particularly vulnerable as there are very limited water resources and
> >>> many
> >>>> of them cannot support hundreds of hikers draining them in addition to
> >>>> supplying the necessary water for the native plants and animals.
> >>>>
> >>>> It is possible to hike the PCT legally without a long-distance permit
> >>>> published by the PCTA, but that does require seeking out each permit
> >>>> individually and doing the research on your own. The permit issued by
> >> the
> >>>> PCTA is actually a collection of permits by the National Parks
> Service,
> >>>> State Parks Systems, Forest Service, and others that allows you to
> pass
> >>>> through the entire trail corridor without seeking out each necessary
> >>> permit
> >>>> individually. It is a service provided to us and there is a limit on
> >> that
> >>>> service so that the trail is still there, beautiful, and most
> >>> importantly,
> >>>> usable for years to come.
> >>>>
> >>>> I saw a lot of disregard for permits on the trail this summer and it
> >>>> concerns me. People ranted about "the government trying to control
> >> their
> >>>> rights saying when they can or can't hike" (I would like to note that
> >> the
> >>>> PCTA is not a government organization) while not paying any regard to
> >> the
> >>>> reason those permits are there.
> >>>>
> >>>> PLEASE be conscientious about this. If we aim to be stewards of the
> >>>> environment and participate in LNT practices then paying mind to the
> >>> permit
> >>>> system and the permit limits is extremely important. They are not
> there
> >>> to
> >>>> limit us. They are there to protect us and the beauty we love to
> >> indulge
> >>>> ourselves in.
> >>>>
> >>>> Passionately,
> >>>>
> >>>> Wikipedia
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Robert E. Riess <
> robert.riess at cox.net
> >>>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Congratulations to the Class of 2016, who were lucky enough to draw a
> >>>>> PCTA Long Distance Permit starting at the border, and who had no
> >>>>> ADZPCTKO to inspire and enlighten them. I am saddened by what I hope
> >>>>> is a temporary halt to the world-class hiking event which for 17
> >> great
> >>>>> years gave so much to so many, provided by so few, and who did it so
> >>>>> very, very well. I am thankful for the opportunity to have partaken.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Certainly, a 2016 PCT through hike is an accomplishment of great
> >> pride
> >>>>> and satisfaction.  Some were not so fortunate.  Some from overseas
> >>>>> could not get a permit to conform with their travel arrangements and
> >>>>> just gave up on their goal of hiking the PCT in 2016.  At least one
> >>>>> hiker known to me had to cancel his airline ticket and rebook to
> >>>>> conform with his PCTA permit at an additional cost of over $1000.
> >>>>> Some were scared to death of being stopped by the US Forest Service
> >>>>> because their only chance to hike did not conform with the date of
> >>>>> their PCTA Long Distance Permit.  They were in genuine fear of having
> >>>> their passports confiscated for “illegal hiking.”
> >>>>> Many US and foreign hikers had permits which were at variance with
> >> the
> >>>>> actual dates of their starts, and many more hiked without a permit of
> >>>>> any kind.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In 2015 and 2016, the PCTA, on its own authority as trail manager,
> >>>>> established a daily quota of 50 Long Distance Permits starting at the
> >>>>> border during the height of through-hiker season.  I was told by Beth
> >>>>> Boyst, the PCT Trail Manager for the US Forest Service, that the
> >> limit
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> 50 permits per day was her idea, stating also that she arrived at the
> >>>>> decision based upon exhaustive research into the increase in hiker
> >>>>> numbers experienced during the years 2012-2014, and their attendant
> >>>> impact on the
> >>>>> first 100 miles of the PCT.   This confused me in that one agency
> >>> limited
> >>>>> the number of permits and another took credit for the decision, so on
> >>>>> April
> >>>>> 14 of this year, I submitted a Freedom of Information Act request
> >>>>> asking for all documentation discussing or supporting the 50 permit
> >>>> daily limit.
> >>>>> The US Forest Service reply to my FOIA request providing 4 pages of
> >>>>> responsive documents was received on July 7.  I will provide my
> >>>>> original FOIA request and the Forest Service’s response by email to
> >>>>> anyone who requests them.  I have read these documents many times,
> >> and
> >>>>> I have found no basis whatsoever for limiting daily hiking permits.
> >>>>> This is the official response of the government of the United States
> >>>>> to a valid request for information.  By law, it is exhaustive and
> >>>>> complete.  There is no more information to consider.  No anecdotes,
> >> no
> >>>>> feelings, no opinions, no guesses.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So, with the 2016 PCT through hiking season drawing to a close, there
> >>>>> will be many hikers with recent experiences on the trail who may be
> >>>>> willing to share their experiences and offer their opinions regarding
> >>>>> the necessity and efficacy of the 2015-2016 permit limitations.  IMO,
> >>>>> this is necessary if the PCT hiking community wants to influence the
> >>>>> 2017 hiking season on the PCT, either in favor of permit limitations,
> >>>>> or opposed to them.  You should not expect to be asked for your
> >>>>> experiences and opinions by the US Forest Service or the PCTA.  Some
> >>>>> of us recall how the permit limitations were implemented for the past
> >>>>> 2 years.  There was no public discussion, there was no opportunity
> >> for
> >>>>> hikers to state their positions, and there was no advance notice.
> >>>>> Hikers first became aware of the 50 permit per day limitation
> >>>>> simultaneously with the opening of the issuance of permits by the
> >>>>> PCTA.  There is every indication there will be more of the same in
> >>>> 2017.  Congratulations to the Class of 2016.  Good Luck to the Class
> of
> >>>>> 2017.   BR
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> >> matter
> >>>> and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss
> >>> ______________________________
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> >>> --
> >>> Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> matter
> >>> and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss
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