[pct-l] Pct-L Digest, Vol 110, Issue 17
marmot marmot
marmotwestvanc at hotmail.com
Mon Apr 23 08:06:02 CDT 2018
As someone who volunteered at the KO for years now, I know the massive amount of work and organization it required. I was never an organizer ---just wanted to help. Help was always needed. That's what the KO was supposed to be --help and affirmation for the attempt to hike the trail.
For those who are suggesting other replacement events, remember they do exist--without concentrating the hikers as they start the trail. ALDHAwest now puts on 5 Rucks in 5 different locations. They are one day intensive on how to do a long trail. They are Feb through March each year. We have been putting on the Gathering since 1993 every Oct. It rotates through 4 states. ALDHA(east) has a similar program. I went to my first ALDHA(east) Gathering in 1987 when I didn't even know what went into a backpack. There is supposedly a ALDHA-mid west forming. Some people contacted us about forming it some years ago
I miss the big KO too but the surprise help and smaller Rucks just might be more useful. And every year the Gathering is wonderful. It's a perfect way to reunite with my hiker friends and cry at each hikers story when we are handing out the Triple Crowns
Marmot
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 22, 2018, at 11:23 AM, Sue <sue.kettles at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> I think my first KO was in 2006. As each year happened, It was a smaller, lovely time of likeminded lovers of trail life to gather and share stories and watch hiking and Squatch movies on that big tyvek screen under the stars. It was magical. Patting the eager “thrus” with their big wide eyes on the back and saying “You can do this! “
> But then came “Wild”...and the trail life grew from 400 a year to 4000 a year. Times have changed- for better for worse. Life happens!
>
> But I’ll cherish the old days in my heart. Strider, Asabat, Capt Bivy, .....gone and never forgotten.....Warner springs Monte cooking all that food! , Georgie sitting there with her spinning yarn thing?, even the pirate guy with his trail inventions for lighter weight, the Andersons camped by the trail to cheer as each person walked into Morena- I felt like a queen that day.
> All the gear options were set up to look at during the day- so helpful. Doesn’t take more than a day or two or carrying a heavy pack to understand that you need to carry less weight. It was just such fun comradeship. Not sure who played the bagpipes of amazing grace in the mornings but that was sooo cool.
> I remember one year hiking from Warner springs south into the KO and meeting so many newbies in their zeal and joy heading north. I was with Squatch and Splash - we were S-Troop. Squatch was interviewing hikers that year for his first or 2nd Pct film. Because of both Splash and Squatch’s gregarious funny nature I met so many new friends (I am a quieter shy type) , just being along for the hike with both of them was a big help for me. In the fall, Splash and I hiked Stevens pass south to Snoqualmie and met at least a dozen of these same people we had met back in late April. It’s was fabulous to witness this huge transformation of personality in them- in April so timid and starry eyed and in wonder,,,,,,and now the hardened tanned bodies, confidence, and the stories of magic they shared. I’ll not forget those encounters either.
>
> You just can’t do something (the KO) that seemed so intimate with all the hundred and hundreds walking the beloved PCT now.
> Even if it could be tried again in another way- it needs to represent its own new deal. Because the real ADZPCTKO just can’t be copied.
>
> I believe it was set up for the last weekend in April designed around a good enough amount of time to hit Ray day June 15th at Kennedy meadows. And for the record, I have hiked section A at least a dozen times now, in April and in May, and have had both extremes of heat and horrendous snow storms.....yet not once have I had a very hot scissors crossing and climb. Now I think that’s unusual.
>
> Originally I was Hatchet Jack (don’t talk to me before coffee), but became Sister Sue on my 2011 hike, named by Joe Anderson - (can’t ya just hear him call me “Sista”?)
> See you out there soon.😊
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 21, 2018, at 12:00 PM, pct-l-request at backcountry.net wrote:
>>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Lake Morena Kick Off: AHA! / Occam's Razor-KIS / ADZPCTKO
>> (Paint YW)
>> 2. Re: Lake Marina kick off (Scott Bryce)
>> 3. Re: Lake Marina kick off (Brick Robbins)
>> 4. Jawbone Canyon Road (Jim Banks)
>> 5. Re: Jawbone Canyon Road (Gary Schenk)
>> 6. Jawbone Canyon Road (Paint YW)
>> 7. Re: Lake Morena Kick Off: AHA! / Occam's Razor-KIS / ADZPCTKO
>> (ned at mountaineducation.org)
>> 8. Re: Jawbone Canyon Road (Jim Banks)
>> 9. Re: Lake Morena Kick Off: AHA! / Occam's Razor-KIS / ADZPCTKO
>> (Paint YW)
>> 10. Gathering thoughts (fhjjillw at gmail.com)
>> 11. Lake Marina kick off (Tim Umstead)
>> 12. Gear question (Sabrina Harrison)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 11:26:10 -0700
>> From: Paint YW <paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com>
>> To: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>,
>> susanvirnig at gmail.com, Amanda Silvestri <aslive at charter.net>
>> Subject: [pct-l] Lake Morena Kick Off: AHA! / Occam's Razor-KIS /
>> ADZPCTKO
>> Message-ID:
>> <CALu=H=i2hz2hfwdAxiSC7OndMLkqiD5aucuvU5Qj1M0LDXGdnQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> -Sunshine (Susan from Spokane)
>>
>> I believe that you have had an AHA moment, where the light bulb goes
>> off in one's head signifying that a solution to a problem has
>> surfaced, or wherein an idea has materialized at once. It's so simple:
>> the ADZPCTKO (if ever held again) would better serve the "trail" by
>> being held the last FULL weekend of March. OR, in lieu of a
>> reconstituted ADZPCTKO, an impromptu/informal gathering might be held
>> on this same weekend.
>>
>> Hypothesis # One- not as many people would attend due to school or
>> work obligations, and Hypothesis # Two- less people would be inclined
>> to start en mass due to weather concerns.
>>
>> Most if not all of the problems associated with the ADZPCTKO, would
>> diminish if not go away in entirety. IF NOT, set the date for the last
>> FULL weekend in February, and let the results speak for themselves.
>>
>> Also, more hikers would naturally select earlier dates for permits,
>> encouraging the beneficial techniques of spreading out the herds and
>> assisting hikers in flipping and flopping up (NOBO) and down (SOBO)
>> the trail. Thinking of two geo windows: the first 700 miles, and key
>> sections between Sonora Pass and the Oregon border, IF- timed right.
>>
>> What can it hurt to try an earlier date, even if it's not held under
>> an umbrella organization?
>>
>> The trail is coming into it's maturity due to a number of factors, and
>> the population of hikers is only going to increase. It's best to meet
>> this issue head on and deal with it using best practices.
>>
>> Disclosure: I am an ardent supporter and a two time attendee
>> (2012,2015) of the ADZPCTKO. For me, and my perspective, the ADZPCTKO,
>> did more good than harm. Perhaps it was a classic case of being a
>> victim of it's own success.
>>
>> The question to ask is: How can the trail and the coming hordes be
>> best served / dealt with, and would an attraction like the ADZPCTKO,
>> held earlier in the season, become part of the solution instead of
>> contributing to the problem? I believe that there is an ideal weekend
>> to hold such an affair, and it just might be in late February or
>> sometime in March. This evolves almost entirely on a paradigm shift in
>> the traditional hiking protocol of a continuous hike, step by step
>> north, and instead shifts almost entirely (for early starters) into
>> one of a flip flop strategy.
>>
>> What say yee faithful list-serve readers?
>>
>> FWIW- My PCTA permitted departure dates from the southern border have
>> been as follows:
>>
>> NOBO 2012 04-26
>>
>> NOBO 2013 05-20
>>
>> NOBO 2014 03-23
>>
>> NOBO 2015 03-03
>>
>> SOBO 2015 07-10
>>
>> NOBO 2016 02-14 (worked the season at VVR)
>>
>> NOBO 2017 00-00 (worked the season at VVR)
>>
>> NOBO 2018 02-15 PCTA permitted / issue-delayed / departure pending (I
>> plan to jump on the trail and hike NOBO in the next few days around
>> mile #210.)
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Paint
>>
>>>>> From a section hiker:
>>
>> On April 4 I started at Campo and hiked 152 miles to Highway 74 ?
>> great burgers at the Paradise Valley Cafe! ? but the heat from the
>> border to Lake Morena was awful. Nearly all of us took 2 days to get
>> to the lake. Each time the folks I was hiking with descended to the
>> desert floor, the heat and the liters of water we had to carry made
>> life very difficult. (Most water sources were already dry or broken
>> or unsupplied.) Many of us commented that we couldn?t understand why
>> the ADZPCTKO used to be held in late April, inviting many hikers to
>> start then. If it was bad for us, we couldn?t imagine starting a
>> month later. (And I know that some folks circled back for the event,
>> but truly ? it encouraged many to start then.)
>>
>> The opinion of the 15-20 folks I was consistently hiking and/or
>> camping with was that if it were ever held again, do it a month
>> earlier.
>>
>> ?Sunshine (Susan from Spokane) (1650 done & 1000 to go) <<<
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 12:56:03 -0600
>> From: Scott Bryce <sbryce at scottbryce.com>
>> To: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Lake Marina kick off
>> Message-ID: <015e8b9a-b5d8-20ad-b9d4-5b7f5abfdb8a at scottbryce.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>
>>> On 4/20/2018 9:29 AM, Susan Virnig wrote:
>>> Many of us commented that we couldn?t understand why the ADZPCTKO
>>> used to be held in late April, inviting many hikers to start then.
>>> If it was bad for us, we couldn?t imagine starting a month later.
>>> (And I know that some folks circled back for the event, but truly ?
>>> it encouraged many to start then.)
>>>
>>> The opinion of the 15-20 folks I was consistently hiking and/or
>>> camping with was that if it were ever held again, do it a month
>>> earlier.
>>
>> And yet the year I attempted my thru hike, it was snowing in the San
>> Jacintos in May.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 12:17:39 -0700
>> From: Brick Robbins <brick at brickrobbins.com>
>> To: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Lake Marina kick off
>> Message-ID:
>> <CALV1Nz=38Q-Q_Oaeu-P=8SV+0cT1Oh5KCfhzCQz+AnUUxvvOEg at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 8:29 AM, Susan Virnig <susanvirnig at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Many of us commented that we couldn?t understand why the ADZPCTKO used
>> to be held in late April, inviting many hikers to start then. If it
>> was bad for us, we
>> couldn?t imagine starting a month later. (And I know that some folks
>> circled back
>> for the event, but truly ? it encouraged many to start then.)<<
>>
>> The date was chosen as a convenient start date to hit Kennedy Meadows
>> South around "Ray Day" - June 15, which is a good time to enter the
>> Sierra on an "average snow year" if "average" means anything anymore.
>> The ADZ date really should be variable based on the seasonal
>> precipitation, but it was such a big event, they had to schedule it a
>> year in advance
>>
>> This year we have a drought in So-Cal so you are experiencing dryer
>> conditions than normal. Some years, people leaving in April get snowed
>> on in the Lagunas.
>>
>> When you hit the Sierra, you may wish you had started later.
>>
>> Oh, and if you think things were hot/dry at the border, wait till you
>> hit the Mojave.
>>
>> HYOH YMMV
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 14:17:28 -0700
>> From: "Jim Banks" <JimLBanks at verizon.net>
>> To: <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>> Subject: [pct-l] Jawbone Canyon Road
>> Message-ID: <000601d3d8ec$fd992530$f8cb6f90$@verizon.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Has anyone had any recent experience with driving Jawbone Canyon Road in
>> California Section F? In particular the section from where it crosses Kelso
>> Valley Road and then goes up to the PCT. Do you need a 4 wheel drive
>> vehicle to get up to the PCT or would a 2 wheel drive pickup be able to make
>> it? Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> I-Beam
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 14:33:06 -0700
>> From: "Gary Schenk" <gary at hbfun.org>
>> To: "Jim Banks" <JimLBanks at verizon.net>
>> Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Jawbone Canyon Road
>> Message-ID:
>> <15e30e5159ffb5ffd206264a880b2992.squirrel at sm.webmail.pair.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8
>>
>>> On Fri, April 20, 2018 2:17 pm, Jim Banks wrote:
>>> Has anyone had any recent experience with driving Jawbone Canyon Road in
>>> California Section F? In particular the section from where it crosses
>>> Kelso
>>> Valley Road and then goes up to the PCT. Do you need a 4 wheel drive
>>> vehicle to get up to the PCT or would a 2 wheel drive pickup be able to
>>> make
>>> it? Thanks.
>>
>> I-Beam,
>>
>> Are you talking about the Geringer Grade section? I did that part of
>> Jawbone last year in a Subaru Outback. It was very sandy at one sharp
>> curve near the top, that was the tricky part. If you did stop there it
>> would be a fairly short walk to PCT. That's probably been graded since
>> then. Many years ago I drove that bit in a 2wd pickup. I think you'll be
>> OK. Good luck.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 15:15:03 -0700
>> From: Paint YW <paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com>
>> To: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>, Jim Banks
>> <JimLBanks at verizon.net>
>> Subject: [pct-l] Jawbone Canyon Road
>> Message-ID:
>> <CALu=H=jM3n3pn-=dQO_W1gHRA+U=+kf86euMk7emQZq6tp1zyQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> I-Beam- Question?
>>
>> I'm looking at a PCT CA Section F map, and Jawbone Canyon Rd. comes up from
>> the eastern flank of the Sierra, in a W by NW track, crosses the PCT at
>> mile 602.5, up on top, and then T bones into Piute Mnt. Rd., at Claraville
>> Flat.
>>
>> Piute Mnt. Rd. runs a westerly / easterly track at this intersection. Piute
>> Mnt. Rd. tracks E by NE, eventually intersecting with Kelso Valley Rd., at
>> a point a few miles as a crow flys above the PCT's mile # 617.
>>
>> If this is the road you are inquiring about- then yes, I have traveled that
>> road in a Dodge 350 dually truck- and no, a 4WD vehicle is not required.
>>
>> For clarity, this route is known as the Harris Grade, and the route from
>> the eastern flank of the Sierra, up over the top, is known as the Geringer
>> Grade.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Paint
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 14:48:04 -0700
>> From: <ned at mountaineducation.org>
>> To: "'Paint YW'" <paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com>,
>> <pct-l at backcountry.net>, <susanvirnig at gmail.com>, "'Amanda Silvestri'"
>> <aslive at charter.net>
>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Lake Morena Kick Off: AHA! / Occam's Razor-KIS /
>> ADZPCTKO
>> Message-ID: <05be01d3d8f1$434fd660$c9ef8320$@mountaineducation.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> There are (or were) a lot of PCT veterans monitoring this listserve who date way back to the inception of the KO. I didn't start going until 2005 after being vetted by Hummel and first heard about it.
>>
>> Any "party" anywhere near the trail will draw hikers and create a herd-wave, which was the concern of Donna's early on as Hiker Heaven was directly impacted.
>>
>> If the reason for the event is still to be a "kickoff" celebration, then, as Paint said, it should be early in the NoBo thru-hiking season. However, timing is not just the issue, location is another problem as Morena can't hold the numbers it would see.
>>
>> I can't help but wonder if this sort of PCT gathering should be patterned after the AT's "Trail Days" event hosted by a town along the trail?
>> http://www.traildays.us/
>>
>> I don't know why they do it in May, but if a PCT event was held the end of June in NorCal, and hosted by Seiad Valley,
>> - people could start any time they wished (not corresponding with a kick-off party down south),
>> - the resources of an entire town and community along the trail could be involved, and
>> - the timing would encourage NoBo thrus to get there by that date, causing them
>> - to get through the Sierra before the fatal creeks start roaring (usually for 3-4 weeks of intense thaw starting late May)
>> - allowing them easier, safer passage on still frozen (not thawing) snow
>> - they avoid the really bad, high-flowing creeks in northern Yosemite, too, and
>> - they'll have enough time after to get to Canada before the first snowstorms stop them in their tracks.
>> - Plus, the SoBo hikers can attend and still start their journeys a few weeks later (roughly)!
>>
>> Didn't someone involved with the town of Seiad Valley speak up sometime in the last two years about hosting such an event??
>>
>>
>> Ned Tibbits, Director
>> Mountain Education, Inc.
>> ned at mountaineducation.org
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Pct-L <pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net> On Behalf Of Paint YW
>> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2018 11:26 AM
>> To: pct-l at backcountry.net; susanvirnig at gmail.com; Amanda Silvestri <aslive at charter.net>
>> Subject: [pct-l] Lake Morena Kick Off: AHA! / Occam's Razor-KIS / ADZPCTKO
>>
>> -Sunshine (Susan from Spokane)
>>
>> I believe that you have had an AHA moment, where the light bulb goes off in one's head signifying that a solution to a problem has surfaced, or wherein an idea has materialized at once. It's so simple:
>> the ADZPCTKO (if ever held again) would better serve the "trail" by being held the last FULL weekend of March. OR, in lieu of a reconstituted ADZPCTKO, an impromptu/informal gathering might be held on this same weekend.
>>
>> Hypothesis # One- not as many people would attend due to school or work obligations, and Hypothesis # Two- less people would be inclined to start en mass due to weather concerns.
>>
>> Most if not all of the problems associated with the ADZPCTKO, would diminish if not go away in entirety. IF NOT, set the date for the last FULL weekend in February, and let the results speak for themselves.
>>
>> Also, more hikers would naturally select earlier dates for permits, encouraging the beneficial techniques of spreading out the herds and assisting hikers in flipping and flopping up (NOBO) and down (SOBO) the trail. Thinking of two geo windows: the first 700 miles, and key sections between Sonora Pass and the Oregon border, IF- timed right.
>>
>> What can it hurt to try an earlier date, even if it's not held under an umbrella organization?
>>
>> The trail is coming into it's maturity due to a number of factors, and the population of hikers is only going to increase. It's best to meet this issue head on and deal with it using best practices.
>>
>> Disclosure: I am an ardent supporter and a two time attendee
>> (2012,2015) of the ADZPCTKO. For me, and my perspective, the ADZPCTKO, did more good than harm. Perhaps it was a classic case of being a victim of it's own success.
>>
>> The question to ask is: How can the trail and the coming hordes be best served / dealt with, and would an attraction like the ADZPCTKO, held earlier in the season, become part of the solution instead of contributing to the problem? I believe that there is an ideal weekend to hold such an affair, and it just might be in late February or sometime in March. This evolves almost entirely on a paradigm shift in the traditional hiking protocol of a continuous hike, step by step north, and instead shifts almost entirely (for early starters) into one of a flip flop strategy.
>>
>> What say yee faithful list-serve readers?
>>
>> FWIW- My PCTA permitted departure dates from the southern border have been as follows:
>>
>> NOBO 2012 04-26
>>
>> NOBO 2013 05-20
>>
>> NOBO 2014 03-23
>>
>> NOBO 2015 03-03
>>
>> SOBO 2015 07-10
>>
>> NOBO 2016 02-14 (worked the season at VVR)
>>
>> NOBO 2017 00-00 (worked the season at VVR)
>>
>> NOBO 2018 02-15 PCTA permitted / issue-delayed / departure pending (I plan to jump on the trail and hike NOBO in the next few days around mile #210.)
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Paint
>>
>>>>> From a section hiker:
>>
>> On April 4 I started at Campo and hiked 152 miles to Highway 74 ? great burgers at the Paradise Valley Cafe! ? but the heat from the border to Lake Morena was awful. Nearly all of us took 2 days to get to the lake. Each time the folks I was hiking with descended to the desert floor, the heat and the liters of water we had to carry made life very difficult. (Most water sources were already dry or broken or unsupplied.) Many of us commented that we couldn?t understand why the ADZPCTKO used to be held in late April, inviting many hikers to start then. If it was bad for us, we couldn?t imagine starting a month later. (And I know that some folks circled back for the event, but truly ? it encouraged many to start then.)
>>
>> The opinion of the 15-20 folks I was consistently hiking and/or camping with was that if it were ever held again, do it a month earlier.
>>
>> ?Sunshine (Susan from Spokane) (1650 done & 1000 to go) <<< _______________________________________________
>> Pct-L mailing list
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>> To unsubscribe, or change options visit:
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>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 15:47:32 -0700
>> From: "Jim Banks" <JimLBanks at verizon.net>
>> To: "'Paint YW'" <paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com>,
>> <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Jawbone Canyon Road
>> Message-ID: <001601d3d8f9$92518a30$b6f49e90$@verizon.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Yes, those are the roads I am talking about. Thanks for the information.
>>
>>
>>
>> I-Beam
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Paint YW <paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2018 3:15 PM
>> To: pct-l at backcountry.net; Jim Banks <JimLBanks at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Jawbone Canyon Road
>>
>>
>>
>> I-Beam- Question?
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm looking at a PCT CA Section F map, and Jawbone Canyon Rd. comes up from the eastern flank of the Sierra, in a W by NW track, crosses the PCT at mile 602.5, up on top, and then T bones into Piute Mnt. Rd., at Claraville Flat.
>>
>>
>>
>> Piute Mnt. Rd. runs a westerly / easterly track at this intersection. Piute Mnt. Rd. tracks E by NE, eventually intersecting with Kelso Valley Rd., at a point a few miles as a crow flys above the PCT's mile # 617.
>>
>>
>>
>> If this is the road you are inquiring about- then yes, I have traveled that road in a Dodge 350 dually truck- and no, a 4WD vehicle is not required.
>>
>>
>>
>> For clarity, this route is known as the Harris Grade, and the route from the eastern flank of the Sierra, up over the top, is known as the Geringer Grade.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Paint
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 16:13:47 -0700
>> From: Paint YW <paintyourwagonhikes at gmail.com>
>> To: ned at mountaineducation.org
>> Cc: "pct-l at backcountry.net" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Lake Morena Kick Off: AHA! / Occam's Razor-KIS /
>> ADZPCTKO
>> Message-ID:
>> <CALu=H=gd5bF9E-r43Puw9JFjRwjJNsiMAw9BY4iF59vODmCV3A at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> Ned,
>>
>> You make several good points and I really don't disagree with much of
>> anything that you said.
>>
>> However, I see two unique events being discussed. Model A- a pre hike
>> event, and Model B- a hike underway event.
>>
>> I don't think there will ever be a kick off (in the sense that it was) nor
>> that is sanctioned or attended to, by most of the official organizations
>> that did so, at one time or another. I hold out a modest amount of hope
>> that if a much earlier kick off did take place, it would be supported in
>> the right way, by the right people and organizations from the hiking
>> community.
>>
>> The party aspect is the least of any reason for my attending.
>>
>> An intangible, the affirmation, manifested by the tangible, the gathering,
>> motivates me the most. To each their own.
>>
>> I was viewing a reconstituted kick off as a draw, to bring more hikers out
>> earlier, in fact substantially earlier, if at all possible. The hikers
>> would have to use a flip flop strategy, which would aid in dispersing
>> hikers along the trail.
>>
>> Obviously, there IS an unknown (early) date that would be TOO early in the
>> season to hold a kick off and yet still accomplish what I have suggested,
>> so the key would be to figure out what the optimum date might be.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Paint
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 2:48 PM, <ned at mountaineducation.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> There are (or were) a lot of PCT veterans monitoring this listserve who
>>> date way back to the inception of the KO. I didn't start going until 2005
>>> after being vetted by Hummel and first heard about it.
>>>
>>> Any "party" anywhere near the trail will draw hikers and create a
>>> herd-wave, which was the concern of Donna's early on as Hiker Heaven was
>>> directly impacted.
>>>
>>> If the reason for the event is still to be a "kickoff" celebration, then,
>>> as Paint said, it should be early in the NoBo thru-hiking season. However,
>>> timing is not just the issue, location is another problem as Morena can't
>>> hold the numbers it would see.
>>>
>>> I can't help but wonder if this sort of PCT gathering should be patterned
>>> after the AT's "Trail Days" event hosted by a town along the trail?
>>> http://www.traildays.us/
>>>
>>> I don't know why they do it in May, but if a PCT event was held the end of
>>> June in NorCal, and hosted by Seiad Valley,
>>> - people could start any time they wished (not corresponding with a
>>> kick-off party down south),
>>> - the resources of an entire town and community along the trail could be
>>> involved, and
>>> - the timing would encourage NoBo thrus to get there by that date,
>>> causing them
>>> - to get through the Sierra before the fatal creeks start roaring
>>> (usually for 3-4 weeks of intense thaw starting late May)
>>> - allowing them easier, safer passage on still frozen (not
>>> thawing) snow
>>> - they avoid the really bad, high-flowing creeks in northern
>>> Yosemite, too, and
>>> - they'll have enough time after to get to Canada before the
>>> first snowstorms stop them in their tracks.
>>> - Plus, the SoBo hikers can attend and still start their journeys
>>> a few weeks later (roughly)!
>>>
>>> Didn't someone involved with the town of Seiad Valley speak up sometime in
>>> the last two years about hosting such an event??
>>>
>>>
>>> Ned Tibbits, Director
>>> Mountain Education, Inc.
>>> ned at mountaineducation.org
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Pct-L <pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net> On Behalf Of Paint YW
>>> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2018 11:26 AM
>>> To: pct-l at backcountry.net; susanvirnig at gmail.com; Amanda Silvestri <
>>> aslive at charter.net>
>>> Subject: [pct-l] Lake Morena Kick Off: AHA! / Occam's Razor-KIS / ADZPCTKO
>>>
>>> -Sunshine (Susan from Spokane)
>>>
>>> I believe that you have had an AHA moment, where the light bulb goes off
>>> in one's head signifying that a solution to a problem has surfaced, or
>>> wherein an idea has materialized at once. It's so simple:
>>> the ADZPCTKO (if ever held again) would better serve the "trail" by being
>>> held the last FULL weekend of March. OR, in lieu of a reconstituted
>>> ADZPCTKO, an impromptu/informal gathering might be held on this same
>>> weekend.
>>>
>>> Hypothesis # One- not as many people would attend due to school or work
>>> obligations, and Hypothesis # Two- less people would be inclined to start
>>> en mass due to weather concerns.
>>>
>>> Most if not all of the problems associated with the ADZPCTKO, would
>>> diminish if not go away in entirety. IF NOT, set the date for the last FULL
>>> weekend in February, and let the results speak for themselves.
>>>
>>> Also, more hikers would naturally select earlier dates for permits,
>>> encouraging the beneficial techniques of spreading out the herds and
>>> assisting hikers in flipping and flopping up (NOBO) and down (SOBO) the
>>> trail. Thinking of two geo windows: the first 700 miles, and key sections
>>> between Sonora Pass and the Oregon border, IF- timed right.
>>>
>>> What can it hurt to try an earlier date, even if it's not held under an
>>> umbrella organization?
>>>
>>> The trail is coming into it's maturity due to a number of factors, and the
>>> population of hikers is only going to increase. It's best to meet this
>>> issue head on and deal with it using best practices.
>>>
>>> Disclosure: I am an ardent supporter and a two time attendee
>>> (2012,2015) of the ADZPCTKO. For me, and my perspective, the ADZPCTKO, did
>>> more good than harm. Perhaps it was a classic case of being a victim of
>>> it's own success.
>>>
>>> The question to ask is: How can the trail and the coming hordes be best
>>> served / dealt with, and would an attraction like the ADZPCTKO, held
>>> earlier in the season, become part of the solution instead of contributing
>>> to the problem? I believe that there is an ideal weekend to hold such an
>>> affair, and it just might be in late February or sometime in March. This
>>> evolves almost entirely on a paradigm shift in the traditional hiking
>>> protocol of a continuous hike, step by step north, and instead shifts
>>> almost entirely (for early starters) into one of a flip flop strategy.
>>>
>>> What say yee faithful list-serve readers?
>>>
>>> FWIW- My PCTA permitted departure dates from the southern border have been
>>> as follows:
>>>
>>> NOBO 2012 04-26
>>>
>>> NOBO 2013 05-20
>>>
>>> NOBO 2014 03-23
>>>
>>> NOBO 2015 03-03
>>>
>>> SOBO 2015 07-10
>>>
>>> NOBO 2016 02-14 (worked the season at VVR)
>>>
>>> NOBO 2017 00-00 (worked the season at VVR)
>>>
>>> NOBO 2018 02-15 PCTA permitted / issue-delayed / departure pending (I plan
>>> to jump on the trail and hike NOBO in the next few days around mile #210.)
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Paint
>>>
>>>>>> From a section hiker:
>>>
>>> On April 4 I started at Campo and hiked 152 miles to Highway 74 ? great
>>> burgers at the Paradise Valley Cafe! ? but the heat from the border to Lake
>>> Morena was awful. Nearly all of us took 2 days to get to the lake. Each
>>> time the folks I was hiking with descended to the desert floor, the heat
>>> and the liters of water we had to carry made life very difficult. (Most
>>> water sources were already dry or broken or unsupplied.) Many of us
>>> commented that we couldn?t understand why the ADZPCTKO used to be held in
>>> late April, inviting many hikers to start then. If it was bad for us, we
>>> couldn?t imagine starting a month later. (And I know that some folks
>>> circled back for the event, but truly ? it encouraged many to start then.)
>>>
>>> The opinion of the 15-20 folks I was consistently hiking and/or camping
>>> with was that if it were ever held again, do it a month earlier.
>>>
>>> ?Sunshine (Susan from Spokane) (1650 done & 1000 to go) <<<
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 10
>> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 16:58:45 -0700
>> From: fhjjillw at gmail.com
>> To: Pct-L at backcountry.net
>> Subject: [pct-l] Gathering thoughts
>> Message-ID: <36EAC5F9-0388-44BA-8E23-18B0D4E95354 at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>>
>> If one of the main purposes of the April kick-off was information gathering, pack shake downs, gear evaluation etc. why not use the Ruck format to accomplish that purpose? That way people can acquire their gear ahead of time. The Rucks happen in the winter months and are spread out geographically enabling more people to attend. The ?party? could be the ALDHA gathering in the fall.
>>
>> Jill, Breakaway
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 11
>> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 21:19:47 -0700
>> From: Tim Umstead <tumstead96 at gmail.com>
>> To: PCT-L <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>> Subject: [pct-l] Lake Marina kick off
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAD3yqM3WjisDjgYhZpeJcyT_5CxOjDDQDsngbqK3bo9mFyg9bQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>>> From the beginning I have missed 4 or 5 of the KOP's, and most of those
>> were toward the end. When we hiked the PCT in 2015 we skipped the KOP,
>> just to avoid all the people and have a few days of trail to ourselves.
>> I'm not sad that the KOP's have ended, but I really did like seeing all of
>> the ultra-light gear from companies that you do not find in a REI like
>> store; Gossamer Gear, Z-Packs, Six Moons, and such like.
>>
>> If I remember correctly, The KOP starting date was picked to line
>> thru-hikers up to hike into the Sierras during an average rainfall year.
>> Look at last year, snow fall was about double an average year. To hit the
>> Sierras at the right time you needed to start late. If you start later it
>> will be hot in So Ca. That is all there is to it. The faster you are the
>> later you need to start. I started the PCT on 4/12/96 and 4/19/15. Not a
>> bad time. It did get a little hot but not to bad, maybe the 90's. Note: I
>> live in San Diego County, day hikes in the 90's is not abnormal. In fact,
>> it is fun to hike by people hiding in the shade and it is only in the low
>> 80's.
>>
>> Side note: Why do I put a 'P' at the end of KOP and not just KO. Well in
>> the very beginning the acronym was ADZPCTKOP not ADZPCTKO. It was Annual
>> Day Zero Pacific Crest Trail Kick Off Party. At some point they dropped
>> the Party. I never did.
>>
>> Papa Raven
>> The Ravens
>> PCT '96, '15
>> CDT '17
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 12
>> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 07:28:56 -0500
>> From: Sabrina Harrison <troopharrison at gmail.com>
>> To: Pct-L at backcountry.net
>> Subject: [pct-l] Gear question
>> Message-ID: <12DC7147-4FAA-4DFF-9664-BE6CF280DAEA at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> Help me think this through - I have a z packs rain skirt and have considered unzipping it and using it as a small tarp under my tent. It?s roughly the size of my trunk area, would go to my knees.
>>
>> Any reason this would be a bad idea?
>>
>> Obviously this is less about weight and more about having an efficient kit where everything has earned its right to be in my pack :D
>>
>> GoGo
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> All content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
>> Reproduction is prohibited without express permission.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Pct-L Digest, Vol 110, Issue 17
>> **************************************
>
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