[Cdt-l] GPS and TOPO! ready files (based on Jonathan's Google, Earth file)

Tue Jan 5 11:24:21 CST 2010

Bob - 

I didn't/don't see any need for your apology.  Nor did I read that as a "lecture".  

Unless one is a trail maintainer FOR THAT PARTICULAR SECTION OF TRAIL, kicking down 

cairns is simply rude, crude and inconsiderate.  And carries a high probability of being 

dangerous to those who follow.  As you pointed out, the kicker would have 

no idea of the purpose of those cairns.  Now would they have any idea of the damage 

that taking them down can do.  

Many of the cairns on the CDT are not there for hikers, but for skiers.  As such, 

they're built tall enough to be visible when the snowpack is five or six feet deep. Other

cairns are built in places where there is no treadway - or where the trail makes unexpected 

turns or where the trail crosses large meadow areas.  In the Winds, some of the trails are 

marked ONLY by cairns - and taking them down means that only those familiar with the 

trail can find, much less follow, the trail.  Then there  are the cairns that mark a water source. 

I can think of a couple of small springs that are nearly invisible - but a small duck next to the

trail lets you know where to look for water. They've saved the day a time or two. 

The cairns on the CDT are rarely built by hikers - or casual passersby - or even horsemen.  

They're generally built with taxpayer money by professional crews working for the Forest 

Service BLM or one of the trail organizations.  Which means that a lot of time, money and 

effort have been put into building many of them.  Which also means that taking them down 

is vandalism and potentially legally actionable.  

Are there cairns that are misleading or misplaced?  Damn right.  But none of us here - including 

Jack - are qualified to make that decision without a lot more knowledge that we have as hikers.  

I've several times been on the trail in whiteout conditions where the ony indication of trail 

was the cairns - and at least once I suspect I've followed Jack or one of his cairn-kicking 

brethren.  It cost me a LOT of time and a LOT of aggravation, and under different circumstances 

could have cost lives.  

So - if I find any kicked over cairns on the PCT this year, I'll be looking for Jack - and it 

won't be to congratulate him.  

Jim

http://www.spiriteaglehome.com/

> From: BobandShell97 at verizon.net
> To: norcalhiker at gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:30:14 -0500
> CC: cdt-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] GPS and TOPO! ready files (based on Jonathan's Google, Earth file)
> 
> Jack replied that I had "lectured" him... "again."
> 
> I apologize to him and to all of you if my plea for CDT cairns appeared to
> be a lecture. Not meant as such. 
> 
> I spoke up only when he identified himself as "the guy that mapped the PCT
> for Backpacker Magazine" and I realized that he was the one who espoused
> kicking down cairns that didn't make sense to him, without knowing their
> purpose or history. That wasn't a "lecture" in the middle of the trail
> above Wrightwood, that was a flat-out argument between two gentleman who
> were frustrated that the other totally rejected the other's reasoning. I'm
> retired and my lecturing days are over, especially on a forum among
> respected equals like the CDT-L. I certainly apologize if my comment
> yesterday struck everyone as a lecture. I meant it as imploring him to view
> cairns on the CDT as potentially more important and beneficial than the ones
> he thought so unnecessary on the better-defined PCT that he had to kick them
> down. Actually, I'm begging him, and everyone, not to arbitrarily destroy
> CDT cairns or "ducks." I recall places on the CDT where a cairn drew my
> attention to a needed change of direction that I otherwise might have
> missed. After one pass in Colorado, my wife and I fanned out and searched
> for ANY sign of a trail. Way far to the left from where obvious trail had
> ended abruptly, I stumbled onto the tiniest of cairns - a mere 8" stack of
> small rocks in the grass - and that led to a gradually more apparent path.
> It would be nice if that little routefinding assistance would still be there
> for the next hiker who comes along. 
> 
> Someone posted, and I saved, the following admittedly "preachy" statement
> during a discussion of cairn destruction on another backpacking forum, many
> years ago: 
> 
> "It's fascinating how we judge the value of things merely in relation to our
> own need. Cairns were put where they are for a reason. We may not
> understand "why" at the moment or where they lead, but nature rarely places
> one rock on top of another and there is a distinct purpose and aforethought
> in their construction. It can be fascinating to try to understand
> historically why the cairns are there. Discovering and following old trails
> can be a joy unto itself and sometimes leads to efforts to persuade the
> Forest Service to reopen trails long closed or abandoned. It is the Forest
> Service, after all, that has legal authority over most of our public
> recreation lands and it requires a certain arrogance to assume that we know
> best and that we should step in and destroy cairns or markers that someone
> else has previously deemed important or necessary. What may seem frivolous,
> unnecessary, or marring of the landscape to one may indeed be incredibly
> important to that someone who carefully placed the cairns in the first
> place. No one can expect you to know all there is about the situation
> before you... and you shouldn't assume that you do either and just destroy
> cairns, the purpose of which you might have, at present, no clue." 
> 
> Anyway, I again apologize if my original comments on cairns offended. OK,
> I've made my plea about CDT cairns and I'm outta here...
> 
> Dr Bob
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
> On Behalf Of Bob
> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 9:44 PM
> To: 'Jack Haskel'; 'Brett'
> Cc: 'CDT'
> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] GPS and TOPO! ready files (based on Jonathan's Google,
> Earth file)
> 
> Jack, 
> 
> On the CDT, please don't kick down cairns the way you were so proud of doing
> on the PCT. There are many places where they are important on this
> lesser-marked trail. They sure helped me in a number of places on the CDT.
> I know you've said that you feel GPS technology should be utilized by all
> hikers, but please leave any CDT cairns standing, for those of us who like a
> nice visual confirmation on the ground once in a while. 
> 
> Dr Bob
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:cdt-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
> On Behalf Of Jack Haskel
> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 7:24 PM
> To: Brett
> Cc: CDT
> Subject: Re: [Cdt-l] GPS and TOPO! ready files (based on Jonathan's Google,
> Earth file)
> 
> "Frankly it'd be a lot easier to generate a reasonably accurate and
> comprehensive "GIS" of the CDT by referring to existing resources (maps,
> guidebook descriptions) and hand drawing a data set using Google Earth or
> TOPO!"
> 
> Heck yeah it'd be easier! I'm pretty sure that actually hiking the CDT would
> be kind of... hard.... :)
> 
> I'm the guy that mapped the PCT for Backpacker Magazine (backpacker.com/pct)
> so I'm one of the few that's collected a detailed track log and way point
> set for a long trail. Too bad that very few use the PCT data (and too bad
> that it was post processed in a less than useful way). The CDT project by
> the magazine is incomplete. They tried to have a bunch of teams of people
> map it, and it was never finished. Maybe I'll do my thing for the CDT? I'm
> not excited about the prospect and don't have the funds for the hundreds of
> dollars worth of lithium batteries. I took a bread crumb every 0.03 of a
> mile I think, and took a waypoint of a road, watersource, campsite,
> viewpoint, etc on average every mile. 
> 
> Cheers,
> Jack
> 
> 
> On Jan 4, 2010, at 6:12 PM, Brett wrote:
> 
> > Order's
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cdt-l mailing list
> Cdt-l at backcountry.net
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/cdt-l
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cdt-l mailing list
> Cdt-l at backcountry.net
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/cdt-l
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cdt-l mailing list
> Cdt-l at backcountry.net
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/cdt-l

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/attachments/20100105/309a3a4d/attachment.html 