[pct-l] bikers on trail
Larry Hogue
Lhogue1 at san.rr.com
Tue Oct 26 19:15:13 CDT 2010
I voted at the link provided. Here it is again in case anyone missed it:
http://ideas.usda.gov/ago/ideas.nsf/0/95AEE35223EF23548625779E00719C6B
Other issues are listed under "What's Hot" on the right of the page. It
looks like the well-organized OHV lobby has been heavily voting on such
topics as "we have more than enough wilderness" and "enhance OHV
opportunities on public lands." Members of this list might like to vote on
those topics as well.
Larry Hogue
-----Original Message-----
From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
On Behalf Of pct-l-request at backcountry.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 2:47 PM
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Subject: Pct-L Digest, Vol 34, Issue 102
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: bikers on trail / cyclists / etc. (giniajim)
2. Re: smartphone as two-way, also ? (AsABat)
3. 80 lbs (Reinhold Metzger)
4. Re: Preparedness (Reinhold Metzger)
5. Re: 80 lbs (Diane Soini of Santa Barbara Hikes)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:32:09 -0400
From: "giniajim" <jplynch at crosslink.net>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] bikers on trail / cyclists / etc.
To: "PCT-L" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <EE3E84B30B0B4EF4A35A3A242608921B at HomePC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
got in; finally!
----- Original Message -----
From: giniajim
To: jape1 at cox.net ; pct-l at backcountry.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] bikers on trail / cyclists / etc.
I haven't been able to log in; it rejects my log in and requests that I
get a new password; this over and over.... I'll keep trying...
----- Original Message -----
From: jape1 at cox.net
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] bikers on trail / cyclists / etc.
We're up to 228...it only took a couple of minutes to cast my vote on
several measures, National Trail completion and no bikes on the
PCT/wilderness areas. It was good to see the passionate Mike Vandeman was
still in the fight.
eckert
---- dsaufley <dsaufley at sprynet.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Jim. It's rather stunning to me that so far only 215 people
have gone out to "demote" the idea of bikes on the PCT, which is going to be
considered at the federal level (this is very scary). There are what,
thousands of members of this list and of the PCTA? Is this an example of
"all talk, no action?" There should be thousands of us saying NO WAY to
bikes on the PCT. Evil triumphs when good people do nothing. Mountain bikers
are not necessarily evil, but the tragedy that can occur is utterly
avoidable.
For the record I am a mountain biker, hiker, and equestrian. But
there's no way I want to be biking around a blind turn on a vertically
exposed mountainside and find hikers, children, goats, llamas, or horses I
wasn't expecting. The trail width, based on prescribed maintenance
standards do not allow for this type of encounter.
L-Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net
[mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net] On Behalf Of enyapjr at comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 8:39 AM
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Subject: [pct-l] bikers on trail / cyclists / etc.
We, the PCT users ('legal' users, that is!) and advocates, must act
('legally') and speak out
and be heard regarding 'wheels' on the Pacific Crest Trail...
Please follow L-Rod's advice and register and 'vote' on the America?s
Great Outdoors Initiative
website... See
<http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/2010-October/041622.html>
for the
links... Spend some time searching the site for other 'ideas' to vote
for or against, too -
there are MANY 'ideas' posted promoting opening more trails to bikers!!
Email the US Forest Service and BLM Superintendents in your area - and
for those 'problem' areas
noted in the next paragraph's link...
Email your congressmen, too - let them all know you don't want 'wheels'
on the PCT and that they
should uphold and honor the original 'charter' regarding the PCT, i.e.
foot traffic only...
From Timothy Nye:
> Also, (subject for a much longer post in the future) the PCTA may now
well view the
> potential addition of mountain bikers as a new and lucrative source of
additional income....
I don't believe the PCTA has even remotely begun to or will ever think
of that!
See <http://www.pcta.org/about_trail/mountain-bikes.asp>...
From the December, 1966, "Trails for America" study results document:
> The Pacific Crest Trail traditionally has served horseback and foot
travelers.
> This use pattern, accepted by most visitors to the trail, should be
continued.
Obviously some PCT (illegal) 'visitors' do not agree with that!
See <http://www.pcta.org/about_trail/threats.asp>...
Also see <https://www.pcta.org/general/news/dev_ntsa.asp>, especially
the last paragraph!
We are outnumbered by the bikers - speak out and let your feelings be
known!!
"You may never know what results come of your action, but if you do
nothing there will be no result."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Happy (biker-less PCT) trails!!!
Jim (PITA)
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:40:55 -0700
From: AsABat<asabat at 4jeffrey.net>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] smartphone as two-way, also ?
To: ned at mountaineducation.org, halfmile at pctmap.net, "John
Abela"<pacificcresttrail2011 at gmail.com>
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID: <309a058c-a421-41f5-82c0-66984ecf2ae5 at blur>
Content-Type: text/plain; Format="Flowed"; DelSp="Yes";
charset="US-ASCII"
We ham operators chuckle at frs and gmrs radios. 2-meter ham radios weigh
the same but have more power, replaceable high gain antennas, and repeater
access. I uses one at Lower Palisade Lake to advise a friend in Independence
of a change of plans. A license requires a multiple choice test and morse
code is not required. Www.qsl.net/aa6j/pct for info.
AsABat aka AA6J
-----Original message-----
From: ned at mountaineducation.org
To: halfmile at pctmap.net, John Abela <pacificcresttrail2011 at gmail.com>
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
Sent: Mon, Oct 25, 2010 23:29:46 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: [pct-l] smartphone as two-way, also?
My "smartphone" is not so smart. It turns itself on inside my pack and
drains the battery unless I pull the battery at the trailhead. It even
unlocks itself and makes calls to who knows where, all by itself! Pain in
the arse, really.
So, now that phones are becoming so "smart," with GPS as you're saying, do
we, now, have a lighter pack because we no longer need to carry our phones
and GPS units (by investing in these "smartphones")? Such a deal! Or is it
still better to carry both?
Can a smartphone also communicate two-way if there are no towers around? The
Garmin we used this Spring, the Rino 530HCx, had a wonderful two-way radio
that kept us all connected through the woods on the snow so we could help
each other find the way. Are the phones able to do this yet?
Ned Tibbits, Director
Mountain Education
1106A Ski Run Blvd
South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
P: 888-996-8333
F: 530-541-1456
C: 530-721-1551
http://www.mountaineducation.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Halfmile" <list at lon.net>
To: "John Abela" <pacificcresttrail2011 at gmail.com>
Cc: <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] smartphone as GPS
John,
For the iphone I think the two best apps are Topomaps and Basic GPS.
http://topomapsapp.com/
http://www.basicgps.net/Basic_GPS/Main.html
Both work well in areas without cell service and are accurate to
better than 50 feet in my testing. You need to preload maps into
Topomaps (best to use wifi) and it can download waypoints directly
from my site at www.pctmap.net. Basic GPS only displays your location
in UTM coordinates, so you would use this app with maps that have UTM
grids printed on them. This is simple and works well and you can
easily plot your location on a map with 25 meter or better accuracy.
Basic GPS saves your phone battery too since you turn the phone on,
wait a minute or two for the GPS fix, plot location, then turn the
phone off. An iPhone will only run a few hours with the GPS on before
it drains the battery.
Last time I tried to use Motion X, I didn't find it very useful
because it didn't work well preloading maps for areas without cell
service and had limited waypoint storage capability. Maybe that's
changed.
-Halfmile
www.pctmap.net
On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 10:37 AM, John Abela
<pacificcresttrail2011 at gmail.com> wrote:
> @Jim K,
>
> Did you just use the pdf formats, or did you use the gpx waypoints and
> load
> them up into MotionX, or some other method?
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Jim Keener ( J J ) <
> pct2010 at ridgetrailhiker.com> wrote:
>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> If a device is marketed as having "GPS", it will have satellite location
>> capability. Smartphone GPS is typically not as accurate as dedicated GPS
>> devices.
>>
>> Many, many hikers have completed the PCT without any GPS capability. I
>> carried an iPhone 3Gs this year and, using Halfmile's waypoints, located
>> myself any time I wanted. There is some really good GPS software
>> available
>> for almost all smartphones.
>>
>> Walk well,
>> Jim Keener ( J J )
>>
>> On Oct 25, 2010, at 10:11 AM, "greg mushial" <gmushial at gmdr.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> Message: 2
>> >> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 08:44:13 -0700
>> >> From: Austin Williams <austinwilliams123 at gmail.com>
>> >> Subject: Re: [pct-l] smartphone as GPS
>> >> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
>> >> Message-ID:
>> >> <AANLkTinOvNfuQPZHGGwxJk2BCWN9RR=DTjKCx7wJ9yr6 at mail.gmail.com>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> >>
>> >> Be careful. Most of the time the 'GPS' in smart phones is based on
>> >> cell-tower triangulation, NOT gps-satellite triangulation. That means
>> >> when
>> >> there are now cell towers around, the "GPS" on the phone won't work.
>> Make
>> >> sure you buy one that uses *real* gps, not the kind that uses cell
>> >> tower
>> >> triangulation.
>> >>
>> >> Just a heads up.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Austin Williams
>> >>
>> >
>> > Is there any (published) indication of accuracy difference? Seems that
>> since
>> > generally towers don't jump around, they should be as good as
>> satellites...
>> > no?
>> > TheDuck
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > Pct-L at backcountry.net
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>> >
>> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 14:02:30 -0700
From: Reinhold Metzger <reinholdmetzger at cox.net>
Subject: [pct-l] 80 lbs
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID: <4CC741E6.8040009 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Chuck,
It's so nice to hear from you.
Yes, I hear what you are saying...the criticizim goes both ways.
But why are you telling ME this?...I am a Ultra-liter and a Heavy
Trucker...depending on the hike.
I'm not criticizing Ultra-liters, I'm criticizing Diane for criticizing
and ridiculing Heavy Truckers.
Nothing wrong with UL, just like there is nothing wrong with Heavy
Truckers....to each his own.
I say HYOH and refrain from criticizing or ridiculing other hikers like
Diane has a tendency to do.
Advise is great....ridicule is not.
JMT Reinhold
------------------------------
Chuck wrote:
Good morning, Reinhold, I disagree. Ultra-lite hikers are tacitly
criticized by some through inference that a lack of gear is dangerous
and irresponsible. Since I?ve been hiking the mountain west since the
Eisenhower administration -- and I haven?t perished yet -- I don?t much
give a rip what they say about me, however I do object to their advising
new PCT hikers that bizarre levels extra/emergency gear is necessary to
stave off disaster. Without some proportion of skill and experience no
amount of gear can assure a hiker will be successful in a difficult
situation. Similarly, given and skill and experience, a hiker with
minimal gear can easily prevail under the same circumstances.
Enjoy, Steel-Eye
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 14:19:48 -0700
From: Reinhold Metzger <reinholdmetzger at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Preparedness
To: ned at mountaineducation.org
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID: <4CC745F4.9090204 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Yes Ned,
That is what I have been trying to convey....but they are not listening
to me.
Maybe they will listen to you.
JMT Reinhold
----------------------------------------
On 10/26/2010 1:15 PM, ned at mountaineducation.org wrote:
> Can we agree on this:
>
> 1. Hike your own Hike.
> 2. Carry what you want.
> 3. Go as light or as heavy as you meets the intent and desires of your
> hike.
> 4. Realistically prepare for the challenges ahead of you as works for
> you.
> 5. "Heavy" does not equate to "safe."
> 6. "Light" does not equate to ill-prepared.
> 7. Know what you're able to do, can't do, and don't want to do on your
> hike.
> 8. Compare to learn, then go decide what "works" for you on test hikes.
>
> Don't be like the guy we searched for and rescued last night at 9:30pm
> at 9,000 feet who was lost off the Tahoe Rim Trail, without food,
> water, and lighting, in 32-degree weather in summer clothes, out for a
> long day-hike with a bad knee, and who's friends left him in the back
> assuming he knew where to go in the dark. He was not prepared in many
> ways and it put him at risk:
>
> 1. Was injured already, yet assumed, himself, that he could "handle it."
> 2. Planned a long day-hike with a couple of thousand feet of elevation
> gain starting at 1:00pm.
> 3. Didn't think he needed any food, extra clothing, water, map,
> lighting, etc..
> 4. Had no communication plan with his two other hiking partners and
> his cell phone was dead.
>
> All we ask is that you learn how to be safe out there. The wilderness
> is too beautiful a place in which to have a bad experience. If you're
> certain that you can be safe (in the conditions that occur) where you
> plan to go, based on what you know and the experienced skills you can
> do with what you've brought, then have a great trip.
>
>
> Ned Tibbits, Director
> Mountain Education
> 1106A Ski Run Blvd
> South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
> P: 888-996-8333
> F: 530-541-1456
> C: 530-721-1551
> http://www.mountaineducation.org
>
>
> Ned Tibbits, Director
> Mountain Education
> 1106A Ski Run Blvd
> South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
> P: 888-996-8333
> F: 530-541-1456
> C: 530-721-1551
> http://www.mountaineducation.org
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "CHUCK CHELIN" <steeleye at wildblue.net>
> To: "Reinhold Metzger" <reinholdmetzger at cox.net>
> Cc: <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 9:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] 80 lbs
>
>
> Good morning, Reinhold,
>
> I disagree. Ultra-lite hikers are tacitly criticized by some through
> inference that a lack of gear is dangerous and irresponsible. Since I?ve
> been hiking the mountain west since the Eisenhower administration --
> and I
> haven?t perished yet -- I don?t much give a rip what they say about me,
> however I do object to their advising new PCT hikers that bizarre levels
> extra/emergency gear is necessary to stave off disaster.
>
>
>
> Without some proportion of skill and experience no amount of gear can
> assure
> a hiker will be successful in a difficult situation. Similarly, given
> and
> skill and experience, a hiker with minimal gear can easily prevail
> under the
> same circumstances.
>
>
>
> Enjoy,
>
>
>
> Steel-Eye
>
> Hiking the Pct since before it was the PCT ? 1965
>
> http://www.trailjournals.com/steel-eye
>
> http://www.trailjournals.com/SteelEye09
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Reinhold Metzger
> <reinholdmetzger at cox.net>wrote:
>
>> Yes Diane,
>> Light is good, there is no question about it.
>> But, did you notice they were not criticizing or ridiculing your
>> lightness
>> like you have a tendency to criticize and ridicule, Ned, Yoshi and
>> "Heavy
>> Truckers" in general?
>>
>> JMT Reinhold
>> ----------------------------
>> Diane wrote:
>> This summer I hiked a few days on the JMT. At a creek crossing I knew
>> I would have to get my feet wet so I just walked right through to the
>> other side and kept going. On the other side, I heard someone holler
>> out to me, "That didn't slow you down one bit!" I turned to look at
>> the person and there were a couple of guys putting their shoes back
>> on after crossing the creek. I went over to say hi. They started
>> making comments about my small pack. They were genuinely curious. One
>> of the guys wanted to give me his card so I could go see his trip
>> report and pictures when he was finished. I never once made a
>> suggestion or anything to them about gear, but I did answer a few
>> questions.
>>
>> Later, I was sitting near a small stream treating some water and
>> having a snack. I was admiring the views when two women carrying
>> enormous loads rest-stepped up the trail. The first lady saw me and
>> the first thing she said was, "We're just taking it slow, trying to
>> savor the experience." I didn't even say hi yet to her. Anyway, I
>> asked her if she was hiking the whole JMT. I was feeling lonely and
>> wishing I could meet some friendly hiker trash who would want to talk
>> about their adventures. She said they were hiking the JMT and then
>> she started making excuses for not going light. I didn't care about
>> any of that, I just wanted to hear about her adventure.
>>
>> On and on it went for 4 days. It was always like that. I never really
>> met anyone. I never really got to talk about adventure and the
>> wonders of being there with anyone. Every conversation was steered --
>> not by me -- toward pack weight and how heavy their packs were and
>> how slowly they were going and excuses and apologies. I never said a
>> word. It's not my place. I just hiked along and people made these
>> comments to me out of nowhere. It was really frustrating.
>>
>> Diane
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 14:46:43 -0700
From: Diane Soini of Santa Barbara Hikes <diane at santabarbarahikes.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] 80 lbs
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID:
<96A58FF1-E761-4659-8A57-AE09060F74D2 at santabarbarahikes.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
On Oct 26, 2010, at 10:00 AM, pct-l-request at backcountry.net wrote:
> Yes Diane,
> Light is good, there is no question about it.
> But, did you notice they were not criticizing or ridiculing your
> lightness
> like you have a tendency to criticize and ridicule, Ned, Yoshi and
> "Heavy
> Truckers" in general?
>
> JMT Reinhold
I have been ridiculed. I have received hateful emails and been told
uncomfortable, even mocking things to my face out on the trail.
I have not ridiculed anyone myself. You have interpreted what I said
that way.
I suppose I could interpret your misogynist jokes and stories the
wrong way, but I choose not to.
------------------------------
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