[pct-l] Tents vrs Tarps - Numbers do not make sense

Thu Feb 3 21:31:07 CST 2011

I don't have numbers. The flaw is assuming the minimalist tent will allow that much of a difference in sleeping bags. The ultra light tents will be a single wall design and therefore have condensation. Especially when the temps are low enough to warrant the greater protection and/or warmer bag. To control condensation in these shelters, you have to vent them. At that point, what's the difference? With a tarp you can pitch it lower in bad weather to minimize the air flowing through. I think my point is that the temp difference won't be 12 degrees.

One other thing to consider. It's generally accepted that, when lightening your pack, after a certain point, you have to start sacrificing some comfort. In your comparison, you assume every night is the coldest you're prepared for. The ultra lighter, with the 5 lb base weight, is willing to wear all their clothes and risk being a little cold one night for the benefit of not carrying the extra weight on the warmer nights. Do you pack for 10% of the nights, or 90%?

Misspellings and typos brought to you by iPhone

On Feb 3, 2011, at 8:08 PM, John Abela <pacificcresttrail2011 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Everybody,
> 
> So over the last day or two since I posted my message (re) asking for folks
> to look at my gear-list I have gotten a half-dozen or so posts (almost all
> off-list) telling me that the best way to go from my 8-pound setup to a
> 5-pound setup is to ditch my tent and go with a tarp setup.
> 
> I very much understand that is the route a lot of folks are taking.
> 
> What I do not understand (could be because my numbers are wrong, or my logic
> is screwed up, or both - giggle) is how exactly this is a significant weight
> savings technique.
> 
> I know there is some logic here I am just not getting in what some of you
> guys are suggestion...
> 
> So, here is why I have been having issues with this... somebody please knock
> some sense into me as to what I am thinking incorrectly.
> 
> 
> We got two options before us:
> 
> (1) Use a lower rated sleeping bag (say, 20-degree) with a tarp and a ground
> cloth.
> 
> (2) Use a higher rated sleeping bag (say, 32-degree) with an enclosed tent.
> 
> Now is seems that most everybody agrees that an enclosed tent gives most
> people an additional 8-12 degrees of warmth, so that allows for a lighter
> bag. I have found this to be true, if but for only one reason: if there is a
> cold wind you are going to have an extra bit of protection inside of the
> enclosed tent that you would not get under a tarp. Now I suspect that this
> is where the big argument (not saying there will be one, just needed to use
> that word as it explains the situation) in all of this plays out. In fact, I
> am pretty sure that is where most will say my logic is wrong - which if that
> is the case, awesome, because than I would now where my brain is screwed up
> with all of this.
> 
> 
> So let me throw out the gear I would use in this example. (could be a lot
> different, I'm just picking some big name products in this UL/SUL world)
> 
> Option #1 -- I would use the "Gossamer Gear Polycryo Ground Cloth" [at 1.6
> ounces] and the "Mountain Laurel Designs Cuben Fiber Mini Solo Tarp" [at 3.8
> ounces] for a total of [5.4 ounces] Lots of sleeping bags to choose from but
> lets just pick the Nunatak Arc Alpinist (I would *have* to go with the Epic
> material because it might get wet from side-spray because it is a tarp-only
> setup) so that would be [25 ounces].
> 
> Option #2 -- I could use the HMG Echo1 at [24 ounces]. I could of course go
> with the GG One at [18.3 ounces] but the modularity of the Echo1 presents
> better options. I could of course also go with the new super-light ZPacks
> HexaNet Bug Shelter at [11.5 ounces] but again, the Echo1 presents better
> weather defense. And, I know what you are thinking with what I just said,
> just bear with me for a moment. So like before, lots of sleeping bags I
> could pick from, but lets just go with the Nunatak Arc Ghost (I can now go
> with the much lighter Quantum material because I would be inside of an fully
> enclosed tent, so that allows me to save a few ounces in material weight,
> and I do not need a lower-rated sleeping bag either, because I am shielded
> from the weather) so the sleeping bag would weight in at [16 ounces] (rather
> than the 25-oz for option #1)
> 
> 
> So gear list explained...
> 
> 
> Option #1 means you are carrying a lighter tarp/groundcloth, however, you
> are taking a bag that is around 10-oz heavier to make up for the lack of
> protection from a tent.
> 
> Option #2 means you are carrying a heavier tent, however, you are able to
> take a bag that is around 10-oz lighter - because you have the protection of
> a tent which means lighter bag material and you can go with a higher rated
> bag because you are out of the direct wind.
> 
> 
> 
> So if I were to throw numbers at both of these two options (by the way, I am
> 6'2 in height so everything has to be 'large' sized):
> 
> (Option #1) Bag + tarp  = 30.4 ounces.
> 
> (Option #2) Bag + tent = 40 ounces (if I went with the HMG). 34.3 if I went
> the GG1, and 27.5 ounces if I went with the ZPacks.
> 
> 
> Going with the bomb-proof HMG shelter, the difference between a tarp setup
> and a tent setup is [9.6 ounces] in favor of the *tarp* system
> 
> Going with the much more popular GG1, the differences would be [3.9 ounces]
> in favor of the *tarp* system
> 
> Going with the ZPacks HexaNet Bug Shelter, the difference would be [2.9
> ounces] in favor of the *tent* system
> 
> 
> Everybody is always saying that the tarp system is the way to go, but if you
> follow the logic (at least what is probably my flawed logic) the numbers
> just do not make that huge of a difference.
> 
> 9-ounces (if you figure I use the heaviest of the tents) is very very little
> difference in the large scope of things... and in no way takes you from that
> 8 or 9 pound pack to a 5 pound pack. So, what gives?
> 
> 
> I know there has to be some logical flaw in all of this... but I am failing
> to see where my numbers are wrong..
> 
> Maybe I am overthinking the whole bag-usage-logic or something.
> 
> 
> Could somebody out there with some real experience of making the switch from
> tent to tarp please look them over for me and beat me straight.... because
> surely an enclosed tent cannot be lighter overall than a tarp setup. Right?
> 
> 
> Totally lost in numbers...
> John
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