[pct-l] Traction--Katoola choices

Mon Mar 14 12:49:07 CDT 2011

Dave,

I believe it is unfair to compare microspikes with YakTrax. I have used both
and agree that the YakTrax do not stay in place on your boot very well. I
hiked Baden Powell in early '09 with YakTrax in the snow. They were fine
going up hill but coming down they slid around the boot and ended up on the
top. Microspikes, on the other hand, are much more stable. I used those on
my PCT hike in '09 and thought they were a wonderful invention. I never had
any issues whatsoever with staying in position on my boots, there was no
indications of any wire/grommet failures, they had outstanding grip on the
iciest of slopes and the fact I could walk on snow, then trail, then more
snow without having to keep taking them off was a big advantage over
crampons. I'll be using them again this year on the CDT.

Peanut Eater

-----Original Message-----
From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
On Behalf Of dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 8:43 AM
To: 'Scott Williams'
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Traction--Katoola choices

Ok Scott, that is good enough. No rubber micro spikes for me.  Thanks  

Dave

  _____  

From: Scott Williams [mailto:baidarker at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 8:34 AM
To: dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Traction--Katoola choices

Hey Jackass,!

I did the San Jacintos with Trax which use the same rubber webbing as
microspikes.  My right foot caught on something and the rubber broke.  I
ended up finishing Fuller ridge with only one and switched it from right to
left depending on the slope.  That was awful, and scary and is the reason I
paid the bit more and got the Katoolas before the High sierra.

On Mar 14, 2011 7:23 AM, <dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com> wrote:
> 
> The one critical failure that I did come across while researching this is,
> an occasion where the wire actually breaks through the rubber grommet.
This
> happened with two of the gear tests that I researched. This did render
them
> useless and the hiker had to take the device off of that foot. This was in
a
> snow condition where there was a bit of extra pull on the wires. 
> 
> With the exception of that failure the overall information that I found
was
> very positive.
> 
> Of course anything can break but this grommet pull out would be a concern,
> particularly if there was not a possibility of a field repair which could
be
> the case with this rubber.
> 
> The one thing that I can say about my instep crampons is that I have had
> them for 30 years. I do not use them a lot but they did save me big time
on
> icy remote trails in the Grand Canyon and have never broken on me. I have
> worn them on icy trails with long distances of rock in between so you are
> inclined to actually have them on when needed. Two piece solid steel with
> nylon straps. I know I would be better off with these then the broken
rubber
> thing in my pack. 
> 
> KTS aluminum crampons are looking pretty good.
> 
> Still shopping. - Dave

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
> On Behalf Of Jason Moores
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 6:38 AM
> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Traction--Katoola choices
> 
> I suppose that would depend on how close to the size change you are,
med/lg.
> I wouldn't want to try to get a med. over a pair of size 13 but if you
find
> your spikes slipping try the next size down. Worked for me.
> 
> Jackass
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 6:00 PM, <ned at mountaineducation.org> wrote:
> 
>> Thanks, Jason! Good to hear. So, is it safe to say that if you down-size
>> one from what you'd normally order, the things will stay on?
>>
>>
>>
>> "Just remember, Be Careful out there!"
>>
>> Ned Tibbits, Director
>> Mountain Education
>> 1106A Ski Run Blvd
>> South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
>> P: <888-996-8333>888-996-8333
>> F: <530-541-1456>530-541-1456
>> C: <530-721-1551>530-721-1551
>> http://www.mountaineducation.org
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Moores" <jmmoores1 at gmail.com>
>> To: <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>> Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 4:47 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Traction--Katoola choices
>>
>>
>> I have used micro spikes for the past two summers and found them very
>>> useful, I wear size 11, so the first pair I bought were the large and
> they
>>> were too large. They didn't stay in place when on an incline, so I tried
>>> the
>>> medium. Perfect. I had no problem with the spikes "rolling" on even the
>>> steepest slopes.
>>>
>>> Jackass
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 8:21 AM, <dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am still checking this out. Sounds like the KTS Alum crampons are the
>>>> most
>>>> likely option unless I get some better feedback on the micro spikes.
The
>>>> microspikes are interesting. Looks like they would certainly be good
for
>>>> some things.
>>>>
>>>> Ned raises concern about the microspikes rolling off on a side slope
and
>>>> I
>>>> have the same concern just by looking at how they attach with the
rubber
>>>> band. I also have a concern on the size of these as medium ends at mens
>>>> 10.5 and large starts at 10.5. I wear a 10.5 to 11 and would be
>>>> concerned
>>>> that the large would be on the loose end and even more likely to have a
>>>> "roll off" problem but I also need to be able to get them on. There is
> no
>>>> way for me to know if these will actually work unless they have been
>>>> tested
>>>> in these mountain conditions, not just sidewalks and flat trails.
>>>>
>>>> I would be interested in feedback from anyone who has used these micro
>>>> spikes in the Sierra Conditions to be faced on the PCT in summer
months.
>>>> And
>>>> what size is recommended for a 10.5-11.0 mens boot.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry to ask so many questions on this but I don't like to experiment
>>>> with
>>>> life safety equipment on the trail and that is exactly what I will be
>>>> doing
>>>> with these snow situations whether I like it or not, unless I can avoid
>>>> them
>>>> by sectioning.
>>>>
>>>> Yes I will probably asking what Ice Ax to get.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ned at mountaineducation.org [mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org]
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 2:03 PM
>>>> To: dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com; 'PCT-L'
>>>> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Traction--Katoola choices
>>>>
>>>> The jury is still out, but we have some concerns about their Aluminum
> vs.
>>>> Steel KTS crampons. (We hope to be product testing them for ourselves
>>>> this
>>>> Spring after the Kickoff in SoCal).
>>>>
>>>> As we see it, with a keen eye on what we know you need in the
Springtime
>>>> Sierra for safety, these are the issues:
>>>>
>>>> - length of points: you do not need long points, so go with the
> Aluminum.
>>>>
>>>> - method of attachment: (this is our biggest concern) you do need good
>>>> strapping over the shoe for those wild, "catch-your-balance" steps
(make
>>>> sure the darn thing doesn't come off your foot just when you need it
the
>>>> most!).
>>>>
>>>> - fit to the width of your shoe: (the next biggest concern) Their
>>>> "LeafSpringR extender bar" must hold to the width of your shoe so it
>>>> doesn't
>>>>
>>>> slide side-to-side in the crampon. You must be able to make sudden side
>>>> steps without your shoe moving in the crampon.
>>>>
>>>> - front points: (real important safety issue) are not necessary for the
>>>> thru
>>>>
>>>> hiker and can even cause severe injury to the other foot if you aren't
>>>> constantly aware of where your feet are moving. The Aluminum model's
>>>> front
>>>> points are more down than forward, so that would, again, be our choice.
>>>>
>>>> - they may ball-up more than the Microspikes since the points are
longer
>>>> (balling-up is the adhesion of wet snow to the metal under foot
creating
>>>> a
>>>> "ball" under there and making footing much less traction difficult).
>>>> Depends
>>>>
>>>> on the condition of the snow.
>>>>
>>>> Be careful not to walk on rock with the aluminum model, for obvious
>>>> reasons.
>>>>
>>>> Now, to their Microspikes:
>>>>
>>>> We are very leery about several issues:
>>>>
>>>> - will they stay on your foot (not roll right off) when you have to
> catch
>>>> your balance with a wild sideways step? Will the "rubber band" allow
the
>>>> rotation of the spikes clear off your foot? Maybe not, but that is the
>>>> moment when you need traction the most. Maybe add another strap higher
> on
>>>> the shoe, from instep on one side to the same on the other....
>>>>
>>>> - they are only good for icy/crusty conditions at the surface of the
>>>> snowpack and, we suspect, will not deal well with the typical Sierra
>>>> "soft-snow-on-the-surface, hard-frozen-layer-down-below," this is where
>>>> balling-up gets in the way of adherence to the crust below (late
morning
>>>> thru afternoon issue). Sure, they are good on the sidewalk, but how do
>>>> they
>>>> do in "Sierra Cement"?
>>>>
>>>> If you need a traction aide, because your footwear does not have the
lug
>>>> pattern nor torsional stiffness to handle edge control well on
hard-ish,
>>>> steep surfaces, we'd go with the KTS, aluminum model (at least you'll
>>>> have
>>>> some edge to work with).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Just remember, Be Careful out there!"
>>>>
>>>> Ned Tibbits, Director
>>>> Mountain Education
>>>> 1106A Ski Run Blvd
>>>> South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
>>>> P: <888-996-8333>888-996-8333
>>>> F: <530-541-1456>530-541-1456
>>>> C: <530-721-1551>530-721-1551
>>>> http://www.mountaineducation.org
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: <dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com>
>>>> To: <ned at mountaineducation.org>; "'PCT-L'" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 6:21 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: [pct-l] Self Arrest - Instep Crampons
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > OK I looked at them both - which one is best KTS Crampons (aluminum
or
>>>> > steel) KTS micro spikes??? I wear a light low top boot if that >
>>>> matters.
>>>> > Vasque Breeze. Any opinions?? Thx
>>>> >
>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> > From: ned at mountaineducation.org [mailto:ned at mountaineducation.org]
>>>> > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 6:11 PM
>>>> > To: dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com; 'PCT-L'
>>>> > Subject: Re: [pct-l] Self Arrest - Instep Crampons
>>>> >
>>>> >>From the point of view of hiker safety, carry both self-arrest and
>>>> >>traction
>>>> >
>>>> > devices up from the Palms to Pines highway 74 just prior to San >
>>>> Jacinto.
>>>> >
>>>> > If you feel that the snow/ice conditions are too much for your skill
>>>> > level,
>>>> > stay on the ridge and don't follow the trail. Remember, regarding
snow
>>>> > travel, you only need to know where the trail is and not that you
have
>>>> > to
>>>> > be
>>>> >
>>>> > on top of it all the time! If by following the ridge to circumvent
the
>>>> > dangerous snow/ice, you come back to the trail, then it all worked
out
>>>> ok.
>>>> >
>>>> > Do not take the instep crampons if they will not have enough
> "purchase"
>>>> on
>>>> > the snow/ice when at an angle. This will only be a false sense of
>>>> security
>>>> > that may fail you when you need them on a steep slope. Better to have
>>
>>>> the
>>>> > Katoola KTS or microspikes.
>>>> >
>>>> > The Black Diamond Whippet will serve you well as long as you know how
>>
>>>> to
>>>> > use
>>>> >
>>>> > it. Just remember, it is not the tool for self-belaying straight up a
>>>> snow
>>>> > climb (like Forester-if the chute is not ice), you'll need an ice axe
>>
>>>> for
>>>> > doing that, nor is it the best self-arrest tool for that ever-needed,
>>>> > uphill-handed, traverse anchor, since it has a basket, is not
designed
>>>> for
>>>> > lateral torque (it will bend), and its shaft will not plunge deep
into
>>>> the
>>>> > snow to secure you in place while crossing a steep traverse on "iffy"
>>>> > snow.
>>>> >
>>>> > For the snow, and you will have plenty even before you get to Kennedy
>>>> > Meadows, take an ice axe, some form of traction device that will not
>
>>>> roll
>>>> > off your foot on a steep traverse, good gaitors, sun screen, a
>>>> > wide-brimmed
>>>> > hat, great glasses, leg protection (for those post-holing days), and
>>>> > experience.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > "Just remember, Be Careful out there!"
>>>> >
>>>> > Ned Tibbits, Director
>>>> > Mountain Education
>>>> > 1106A Ski Run Blvd
>>>> > South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
>>>> > P: <888-996-8333>888-996-8333
>>>> > F: <530-541-1456>530-541-1456
>>>> > C: <530-721-1551>530-721-1551
>>>> > http://www.mountaineducation.org
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: <dnielsen at djmurphycompany.com>
>>>> > To: "'PCT-L'" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>>>> > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 7:43 AM
>>>> > Subject: [pct-l] Self Arrest - Instep Crampons
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Are the San Jacinto and specifically Fuller Ridge, the 1st location
>>>
>>>> that
>>>> >> foot traction devices and self arrest tool might be needed?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I plan to carry an old pair of Swiss 4 spike instep crampons and a
>>
>>>> Black
>>>> >> Diamond Whippet in lieu of ice axe.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It is understood that checking weather conditions and snow pack
prior
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> entering the San Jacinto is a prerequisite.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Dave
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Pct-L mailing list
>>>> >> Pct-L at backcountry.net
>>>> >> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>>> >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>> >>
>>>> >> List Archives:
>>>> >> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Pct-L mailing list
>>>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
>>>> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>>
>>>> List Archives:
>>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pct-L mailing list
>>> Pct-L at backcountry.net
>>> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>>
>>> List Archives:
>>> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
>>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> 
> List Archives:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Pct-L mailing list
> Pct-L at backcountry.net
> To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
> 
> List Archives:
> http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/

_______________________________________________
Pct-L mailing list
Pct-L at backcountry.net
To unsubcribe, or change options visit:
http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l

List Archives:
http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/